Carronade overtakes Claymore

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Carronade overtakes Claymore

Post by kutusov » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:05 pm

looks like Carronade in Falkirk will over take Claymore as Scotlands biggest wargames Show 35 Traders and 30 Clubs so far.

Between the 2 arn't we lucky :lol: all we need is another couple of the same size spread over the year and we are in clover :lol:
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Post by barr7430 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:31 pm

It's actually a very interesting situation Bob...Twilight of the Empire?... if Claymore doesn't find a venue in 09 the switch could be a little more than temporary
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Post by Liam A of E » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:38 am

Certainly all of my esteemed colleagues at the Glasgow club (those with whom I have discussed the topic), feel that Carronade is the better show. I do think in terms of quality, there is a lot to be said for that viewpoint, but do think there is also an element of Claymore having become, well, boring and predictable. The reaction to the question, "are you going to Falkirk?" is one of excitement, but with Claymore, its more like "I suppose so". Same gripes - B&B in the dark old corner, food service erratic or non existent, traders always in the same places (in the door, turn left = Dixon! And the variety seems to have tailed off). Theres just not a buzz about it, like there is at Carronade.

In other words, Carronade has become Scotlands premier event.

So I tend to think that if SESWC doesnt use the switch in venue to breathe some life into the show, we could see one slip off the calendar, which we definately dont want! My understanding from speaking to Traders is they find it a schlep coming north, and they do pick and choose who they will come to. Businessmen will cut overheads.

I appreciate the effort that goes into organising these events, so my comments are not intended to slight SESWC guys - but as a member of the wargames showgoing public, I think my view is relevant. Lets hope Im noeither Cassandra, nor Laocoon!
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Post by martin terroni » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:07 pm

Totally agree with Liam, Falkirk is certainly the better of the two shows. I believe that the Edinburgh club have no major funds to help and find a new venue. This will hinder an already difficult task as it is!
I will look on the positive side, this maybe the impetus for the club to find a new venue and breath life into the show :?
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Claymore

Post by Angus Konstam » Sat May 03, 2008 6:48 pm

Dear All,

I didn't write this, but as I'm a member of the group (and theoretically a Claymore "helper") then I said I'd post a cool and groovy response. Its real author is Jack Glanville, the Claymore organiser, who therefore should know what the score is!

For my part, I feel (if anyone cares), Claymore has been looking a little shabby for a few years now, and Carronade has swooped in and reached parity or better very quickly. I really take my hat off to the Falkirk guys - well done fellas! The truth is, BOTH shows are excellent for Scottish wargaming, as they're both AS big as other regional shows like York and Leeds, and between them they give us an anorak boost which other parts of Britain don't get. The more the merrier I say! Certainly, Claymore should use the boost of a new venue from 2009 on (wherever that might be) to give itself a bit of a makeover. In fact, we may well have scored ourselves a great new Edinburgh venue, but Jack will tell you all about if or when the whole thing is signed an' sealed. We should be delighted we now have two great shows, as well as several smaller ones - a fuller calendar than most...

Angus Konstam


Anyway, here's what Jack has to say:


While there is some truth in the above comments, these should be viewed with a bit of background knowledge.

1) Yes a lot of the traders at Claymore are in the same spot year after year. But taken in light of the space they book, their power needs and rack systems then there is sometimes little alternative. Plus and most importantly many of the traders don't want to be moved about. As the people who pay for the venue hire their wishes have to be respected if possible. Claymore has moved traders about as reqirements change. Falkirk were no different and put their traders in the same spots for their first 2 shows. This year will be different because they have a new venue but I bet if they use Graeme High again you will see traders in the same place. Partizan is the same.

2) The Bring and Buy is placed in that spot because there is no power source for traders and there is a huge sand pit which although covered will not take the weight of traders cabinets. Health and Safety issue. I noticed that for the previous 2 years the Falkirk "flea market" was also placed in a poorer lit area up on the stage.

3) Variety: We've had at least 13 new traders over the last 5 years.

4) Funding is an issue for all events. I dont know how Carronade is funded but SESWC use trader revenue to fund Claymore and have in the past given all the door receipts to charity. This practice will probably have to change in the future. Even so Claymore costs traders nearly twice as much per table as Carronade. Traders accept that SESWC keep table cost to a minimum and this has been offset by the numbers through the door 600+ last year, at least double the number going to Carronade.

5) Cafe facilities. Edinburgh Coucil paid off the cafe staff 2 years ago as part of a cost cutting exercise. It is an issue that SESWC are concerned about but can't afford to hire in caterers. However, we've arranged food vans to be parked outside, providing a healthy Scottish diet of burgers, hot dogs, ice cream, soft drinks etc.

6) The future of Claymore. There are several venues that would be suitable. However these cost more than twice as much as Meadowbank. A major rethink of the way Claymore is funded started at the club AGM last November and the search for a new venue which began 2 years ago
continues.

Jack Glanville
Claymore 2008



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Re: Claymore

Post by Angus Konstam » Sun May 04, 2008 8:13 am

Angus Konstam wrote:Dear All,

I didn't write this, but as I'm a member of the group (and theoretically a Claymore "helper") then I said I'd post a cool and groovy response. Its real author is Jack Glanville, the Claymore organiser, who therefore should know what the score is!

For my part, I feel (if anyone cares), Claymore has been looking a little shabby for a few years now, and Carronade has swooped in and reached parity or better very quickly. I really take my hat off to the Falkirk guys - well done fellas! The truth is, BOTH shows are excellent for Scottish wargaming, as they're both AS big as other regional shows like York and Leeds, and between them they give us an anorak boost which other parts of Britain don't get. The more the merrier I say! Certainly, Claymore should use the boost of a new venue from 2009 on (wherever that might be) to give itself a bit of a makeover. In fact, we may well have scored ourselves a great new Edinburgh venue, but Jack will tell you all about if or when the whole thing is signed an' sealed. We should be delighted we now have two great shows, as well as several smaller ones - a fuller calendar than most...

Angus Konstam


Anyway, here's what Jack has to say:


While there is some truth in the above comments, these should be viewed with a bit of background knowledge.

1) Yes a lot of the traders at Claymore are in the same spot year after year. But taken in light of the space they book, their power needs and rack systems then there is sometimes little alternative. Plus and most importantly many of the traders don't want to be moved about. As the people who pay for the venue hire their wishes have to be respected if possible. Claymore has moved traders about as reqirements change. Falkirk were no different and put their traders in the same spots for their first 2 shows. This year will be different because they have a new venue but I bet if they use Graeme High again you will see traders in the same place. Partizan is the same.

2) The Bring and Buy is placed in that spot because there is no power source for traders and there is a huge sand pit which although covered will not take the weight of traders cabinets. Health and Safety issue. I noticed that for the previous 2 years the Falkirk "flea market" was also placed in a poorer lit area up on the stage.

3) Variety: We've had at least 13 new traders over the last 5 years.

4) Funding is an issue for all events. I dont know how Carronade is funded but SESWC use trader revenue to fund Claymore and have in the past given all the door receipts to charity. This practice will probably have to change in the future. Even so Claymore costs traders nearly twice as much per table as Carronade. Traders accept that SESWC keep table cost to a minimum and this has been offset by the numbers through the door 600+ last year, at least double the number going to Carronade.

5) Cafe facilities. Edinburgh Coucil paid off the cafe staff 2 years ago as part of a cost cutting exercise. It is an issue that SESWC are concerned about but we can't afford to hire in caterers. However, we hope to arrange food vans to be parked outside, providing a healthy Scottish diet of burgers, hot dogs, ice cream, soft drinks etc, although we still have to sort out the red tape and the details.

6) The future of Claymore. There are several venues that would be suitable. However these cost more than twice as much as Meadowbank. A major rethink of the way Claymore is funded started at the club AGM last November and the search for a new venue which began 2 years ago
continues.

Jack Glanville
Claymore 2008



E-mail posted by:

Angus Konstam www.edinburghwargames.com
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Post by thinredline » Sun May 04, 2008 6:28 pm

Hi,

If you want to gauge who the best show is then that's your affair, BUT, I sling my hook with Angus, we are fortunate to have two shows the size of SESWC and Falkirk, along with the rest of the "smaller" affairs. :D

To me it is not a question of "the best show, or the "biggest show" north of the border, but the fact that there are so many shows readily accessible to Scottish Wargamers and our Northern “Cousins” This is a resource we as war gamers should appreciate. 8)

Granted, SESWC may be about to hit a sticky patch venue wise, but I would be the last to decry their excellent efforts in hosting Claymore to date. I am sure they will continue to do so in another venue . All credit to the lads at Falkirk as well, Carronade is beyond question an excellent show. :)

The bottom line is that you don’t know what you have until its gone. :cry: Saying you “will miss Claymore” just doesn’t cut it, support the shows, or we may end up losing them, and I for one do not relish the prospect of travelling way down south, to me that length of journey, expense, and commitment in time is above and beyond the call of duty . It takes time and commitment from the clubs concerned to host these shows, the least we should do is help support them, and stop bickering about them as if they were “school league tables”. :P

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Post by Bluebear » Sun May 04, 2008 9:20 pm

In my area we have one small local convention each year . . . with only one historical game (and that has been Napoleonic). Be happy to have a choice of good shows, gentlemen . . . because the alternative is no fun.


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Post by Liam A of E » Mon May 05, 2008 8:27 am

Ok. I do not think for one minute that anyone in Scotland is hoping for, or crowing over the possible demise of Claymore. Far from it.

However, the fundamental point is that there is a feeling amongst the wargaming confraternity that attending Claymore is a less attractive prospect than it has been. And I remember the torrid, sweaty days of Adam House, which was where I also used to sit my Law exams, so it had some interesting flashback moments. Yet I came every year - because there was little else in Scotland.

Now there is Falkirk, Dumfries, Kirriemuir,Forfar, Glasgow and pardon me if I have missed any.

Within easy reach there is also Leeds, Sheffield and so on. Yet only a finite number of free weekends....... So I cant just go to a show for the sake of supporting it. I expect and am entitled to a return for my investment of time and money.

And I do think that I am entitled to think of it in those terms. Yes, those organising shows put an incredible amount of effort into it, and give up a lot of time, sanity and probably hair into giving something back to the wargaming hobby. But I'm sorry to say I dont go to shows on the basis of the amount of effort that goes into the background - the only measure I have is what I see in the foreground - and if that doesnt reflect the vast amount of effort that goes into it, then that is a crying shame and must be changed.

What we have is an earnest wish for things to improve, as with all consumers, if there is nothing to interest them, they will stop going, taking their business elsewhere.

The change of venue is an excellent opportunity, as people who had stopped going, or were wavering, will attend out of curiosity. Thats the chance to impress them and get them to come back. That was the point of my post.

Jacks response via Angus certainly highlighted the background, but does not change the perception. Indeed it almost begs the question, why not change venue earlier? I am aware of the difficulties in getting economic large scale venues in Edinburgh, but that problem hasnt got any less problematic over the past few years.

Further, on the assumption that Jacks comparisons with Carronade are correct, and I do not doubt him, then how has Carronade won and kept the "feelgood factor"?

If change of funding and less money to charity is needed, then go ahead. I for one will be right behind that decision. I would gladly give directly to the charity to ensure Claymore flourished.

Has SESWC thought of carrying out some kind of "Customer Survey"? It would be fairly easy to organise - post a link on this site, Wab sites, TMP and so on, back to your website to answer a few questions, then take them into consideration when planning 2009. You wouldnt be short of answers. You know how opinionated Wargamers are.

We all want Claymore to succeed. We are all behind SESWC. But at this crucial stage in its history, we need to be able to express what we think is right and what is wrong with it, if only for all of that effort to be "up there on the screen".
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Post by barr7430 » Mon May 05, 2008 10:17 pm

I don't think there is any need for anyone to be defensive with regard to this discussion. CLAYMORE has served the Northern UK Wargames community well for many many years. It has been a great show for both trade and games and has created an excellent vehicle for the likes of Leuchars, Lance & LongBow, Iron Brigade, Dundee Skirmishers, LoA and many other groups to display wargames over the years. This has been mutually beneficial. It is however a bit tired now, needs a revamp and a new venue perhaps even a slight downscaling to maintain quality? Partizan is not the biggest show in the UK calendar but it is a real quality event and must rank in the Top 3. Maybe Claymore wants to rethink such aspects as: size, competitions, trade, how about creating themes even?
The guys that organise such as Jack, Colin and the rest and some of the nicest in the hobby and also real die hard gamers whose focus over the years has been games and not money. If internal club politics at SESWG are hampering decisions, I know how I would handle that :wink:

We need Claymore, but not a 2nd Division version. The public and the trade will support a flagship Scottish show but I do believe for the first time in as long as I can remember that crown is actually up for grabs.
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Post by j1mwallace » Mon May 05, 2008 10:58 pm

I have very rarely missed a Claymore since my days at SESWC back in the early 80's.I will say that the current venue is definitely tired but in defense of the guys who run it trying to get somewhere decent in dinburgh , when the festival and fringe are about to start or have started cannot be an easy or inexpensive task.
The district council have not had the desire or the funding to keep Meadowbank going.
I note that there have been comments on both a change of venue and a change of date. I would definitely welconme the first. the second is more of a problem as the guys would possibly struggle not to clash dates
I always try and say thanks to the organisers on the day and keep any small criticism if needed,constructive.
After all these guys are hobbyists just the same as we are. Many of them are old friends now (and I do mean old).
Best wishes to the SESWC guys and of course to the guys at Falkirk, especially Kenny who has been unfailingly helpful.
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See you on Saturday!!
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Post by sharnydubs » Tue May 06, 2008 10:18 am

My introduction to the wargaming hobby was at a show in Aberdeen many years ago. Yes they did have one back then. Small but memorable.

I've always tried to attend Claymore in the past , back from Adam House/Hall days and into Meadowbank and hopefully into a new venue. I've brought many friends and relatives down from Stonehaven to give them an intro to the hobby and shopfront into what we do. This year I'm planning on running an Indian Mutiny game (participation or demonstration - not sure yet which) at Claymore to give my Residency building a proper airing. It's always been a great show for me and one I really look forward to and my body can cope with Mcdonalds once a year !

This Saturday will be my first Carronade and I am looking forward to this relatively new show and getting my Napoleonics onto the table for our Ligny battle.

I don't see Claymore and carronade as competing for business , more as complimentary to each other. Long may they both continue. I will do my bit to support them both

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Post by theoldschool » Tue May 06, 2008 12:03 pm

There are a a few old hands on the forum who will remember the last great debate within SESWC about Claymore money going to charity.
I have never supported the idea. By all means give a charity some free space at the show and allow those attending to contribute if they want to.
I am not entirely at ease with the concept that if I want to attend a wargames show then I have to contribute to a charity that I might not be comfortable with. Giving to charity should be voluntary not compulsory.
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Post by sharnydubs » Wed May 07, 2008 7:38 am

Incoming fire!

The Claymore entrance fee goes to SESWC to help offset their costs of running the show. What SESWC chooses to do with the profits is up to them. I applaud their decision to give this to charity. we as punters do not give direct to the charity, if we did it could be done more tax efficiently but I suspect there would be a lot less donated !

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Post by thinredline » Wed May 07, 2008 8:10 am

With you on that one Peter
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