Historicon 2010

martin terroni · Post by **martin terroni** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:32 pm

My god! There is something new! Arguing over wargame rules.

18th Century Guy · Post by **18th Century Guy** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:02 am

I may start a riot over here in the states but there is now talk of having HMGS move under the Origins umbrella. It would still be a 'historical' miniatures focused group but let the professionals run the cons.

But this probably won't happen in my lifetime as the hysterical (or is that historical?) people that broke away from the Origins group 30+ years ago are still around and wouldn't let that happen.

MGH.FOND · Post by **MGH.FOND** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:59 pm

I've been a member for awhile but first time poster. Our local group has been using BLB for our Swede/Russian games and really enjoy the rules.
I attended Historicon and while I couldn't get into a BLB game I was lucky enough to play in a RtE game. I believe it was the second time the Napoleonics scenario was played.
I don't own any Napoleonics. I've played in some at conventions so I'm no expert but I really enjoyed the game Barry presented. I don't get involved in TMP rules babble but I don't get why people think the rules are so complicated, they seemed fine to me.
I was a French player and we quick stormed a Brit held village and bundled them out of it nicely. Then - because I was on Attack orders and hadn't changed them - a battalion of my lads waded into the river and drove back some more elite Brit light troops to gain a slippery foothold on the other bank. Oh, it was glorious! (I had good die rolls, my opponent not so much but that ain't going in the Action Report to my superiors)
Sadly, the British charged us before we could reform with some hussars (rather unsporting I say) and destroyed my boys. Oh well, it was a lot of fun.
Now I can't wait to purchase the second edition of BLB.

So Barry is Scottish? Gee, I thought that was a Russian accent,

.
Seriously, it was a pleasure to meet both Barry and Clarence who were real gentlemen.

CoffinDodger · Post by **CoffinDodger** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:39 pm

MGH.FOND wrote: ...Gee, I thought that was a Russian accent, .

He's from East Kilbride - they all sound Russian there.

Greystreak · Post by **Greystreak** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:39 pm

As the man says in the film:

"Emergency, emergency. Everybody to get from street."

bibio · Post by **bibio** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:35 pm

He's from East Kilbride - they all sound Russian there

This coming from somebody in Motherwell

iain

Duke of Plaza-Toro · Post by **Duke of Plaza-Toro** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:44 pm

Looks like Barry's Charm Offensive

to the USA and Historicon has been a success - judging by noticeable increase in positive comment about RtE circulating the various forums / Blogs and even TMP in the last few days!

You and Clarence seem to have impressed a few people Barry. (The lovely looking game might have helped a bit as well...)

Post by **barr7430** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:59 pm

Put in down to my wit, charm and Clarence's good looks!

But seriously, the task at hand was to get people playing and to dispel some of the inaccurate reactionary crap that was flying around about the rules. I honestly do not mind whether people like 'em or not, as long as the opinion is based on actual experience and not reading something someone has written on a forum somewhere.

What I did find particularly revealing about some of the postings Re: Lasalle is nothing to do with the rules perse but rather the kind of players who are using the rules..
Questions like..
"Can I win using the Imperial Guard?" harks back to WRG 6th edition for me where the history was not even secondary but actually inconsequential. What players are interested in is WINNING. How can I WIN a Napoleonic battle?.. what is the magic combination to beat the enemy? which divisions should I choose? I remember only too well the sad gamey bastards at the EK club who used to choose their armies on that basis:

New Kingdom Egyptians
Teutonic Knights
Late Romans
Sassanids

These were the favourites of the wankers.

I am sure that was not Sam Mustafa's primary objective in writing Lasalle but it is indicative of some of those who may be using it. It must lend itself well to Tournament, points driven play.. good for them.. but not my style of Naps gaming so a comparison between R2E and Lasalle either in terms of content, game feel or concepts is irrelevant for me. Puts the Canadian reviewers in perspective too. Bet they are fun to be with of an evening

Duke of Plaza-Toro · Post by **Duke of Plaza-Toro** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:22 am

barr7430 wrote:I am sure that was not Sam Mustafa's primary objective in writing Lasalle but it is indicative of some of those who may be using it. It must lend itself well to Tournament, points driven play.. good for them.. but not my style of Naps gaming so a comparison between R2E and Lasalle either in terms of content, game feel or concepts is irrelevant for me.

I agree Barry. As I think I said somewhere before on this forum - Lasalle is essentially a Tournament set of rules, and while that might not have been Sam's "primary objective" (as it happens - I think it probably was) the rules are never-the-less cleverly pitched at gamers familiar with DBM style mechanics, who’s principal motivation in the hobby is competition gaming (and there are a fair few of them around). Nothing wrong with that of course if that’s what you’re into, and Lasalle is a very good set of rules – but so different in philosophy from RtE or Black Powder as to render any direct comparison fairly worthless.

This was the principal flaw in the Miniature Wargames review article IMO. Taking four (I think it was?) sets of ‘Napoleonic’ rules, three of which (RtE, Lasalle and BP) were written from very different perspectives, and then attempting to write a critical comparative review of them all – was pure folly.

…Especially when the reviewers seem so predisposed to a particular style of wargames rules before they even started…

CoffinDodger · Post by **CoffinDodger** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:00 am

Gentlemen,

Here's the Old Fart preaching to the converted. I have only ever entered one tournament in recent years: it was a Flames of War 600 point match and I looked on in wonder as various ahistorical groups were put together with the sole purpose of winning. The four by four foot tables were covered with elites backed up by an assortment of armour that could possibly have taken present day Panama.

I am pleased to say that, although I didn't quite ruin their day, I at least threw some spanners into the machinery of their sadistic enjoyment by fielding an historical Cossack cavalry unit complete with two tachankas and some clapped out armoured cars and trucks.

Out of the six games I played, the only one I won reduced my teenage opponent to dummy-spitting tantrums and near tears over what he considered unfair interpretations of the rules. I could already see in that young man the buddings of a successful legal career. My enjoyment was the spectacle of my Russian cavalry's tribute to the charge of the light brigade.

After that there were no more tournaments. Although I do enjoy Black Powder, I quite frankly appreciate the fact that Republic to Empire does not contain a points system.

Oh and Barry and Clarence, long may your proselytizing zeal continue. You are a credit to the hobby.

Excuse me for waffling on...

Jim

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:25 am

Jim, if you like weird forces like that you should try AK47 where you can have loads of strange troops and equipment and loads of different factions. Once you have sorted out your force you then use political points to try and improve their training or reduce your opponents, add reinforcements or take away troops from the enemy, improve armour and impose oil imbargos on the enemy. Once you have done that you then dice to see what you actually get on the battlefield to start with then attempt to get the rest as reinforcements. It's all massive fun and rules lawyers would absolutely hate it. Our club ran a great campaign over a few years which you can see on this link but if you are of a nervous PC frame of mind don't bother looking. http://www.hodgenet.co.uk/Ztum-Setum/Index.htm

Cheers
Dave

Duke of Plaza-Toro · Post by **Duke of Plaza-Toro** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:31 am

That's a cracking army Jim. I love tachankas!

The kid probably thought they were chariots and you were fielding Ancient British.

CoffinDodger · Post by **CoffinDodger** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:28 am

Dave,

That is bloody hilarious. I am also a fan of The Major's colonial wargaming site. Not for the faint-hearted or liberal bleeding-hearted for that matter.

Jim

Post by **barr7430** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:34 am

Even the Tourney players are having a go at Tourneys though!

I saw some comment somewhere about all the terrain being samey at Historicon and 'wall to wall tanks'. That's what you get... why are they surprised??

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:50 pm

CoffinDodger wrote:Dave,
That is bloody hilarious. I am also a fan of The Major's colonial wargaming site. Not for the faint-hearted or liberal bleeding-hearted for that matter.
Jim

Glad you like it Jim, I noticed a few of the links don't seem to be working and Derek who runs the site is currently touring Europe for a few weeks. We still get the armies out now and again because they are such good fun but we use the first version of the rules which are nice and simple but they have upgraded the rules a few time and all I think is that they have added more detail which slows the game down by making them more complicated without adding anything extra to the game.
The Major General's site is also another of my favourites and you can even find my HMS Snapper on there somewhere.

Cheers
Dave