CHANGE OF FACING

Any questions relating to Beneath the Lily Banners rule system.
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CHANGE OF FACING

Post by barr7430 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:10 pm

This issue has caused a little debate over the piece and I think a bit of clarification is necessary.

Part of the confusion comes from the wargaming convention of MULTI BASING. In itself a convenience but often passed over in terms of its significance in play.
A battalion in line is 9 figures wide and two figures deep. If these were singly based a unit turning 90 degrees would become a column 2 figures wide and 9 figures deep. THIS IS NOT A MILITARY FORMATION. With multi basing a three figure wide 'stand' or 'base' or 'element' is turned to face thus presenting some semblance of cohesion but in fact this is not an accurate representation of what is happening just a gaming convention.


Taking this to the Horse we have a line one figure deep(it represents a double line in reality) turning to face with half a squadron (three figure basing element). If based singly, one figure would turn to face.

THIS IS THE FIRST CHALLENGE

A BLB game turn could represent up to 30 minutes of real time in a large battle. Questions about what could or could not happen in a 'turn' have to be in this context. A battalion may well be able to perform relatively complex reordering by companies/platoons/wings etc in such a time period so that must also be taken into account in discussions about what is or is not possible.

THIS IS THE SECOND CHALLENGE


EXPLANATION

The 90/180 degree turn is simply to present some demonstration of show to the enemy. Expansion is possible at the rates quoted in the rules IF time is available.. this however will not allow most units to adopt the formation they wish therefore a FORM order is the only way to handle a change of facing in the same formation as previously adopted.

Where expansion may help a unit is if charged and it wished to turn to face (to prevent being contacted in flank or rear) AND wished to expand to have some ability to fight back.

A turning unit would have required the enemy to be at least 50% of its charge move distant at the start of the turn. Expansion would then be governed by the time taken for the enemy to contact (expansion stops on contact). Figures fighting are governed by the rules

This must be put in context of BLB now. Units wishing to change facing whilst remaining in the same formation must place a FORM marker. Turning 90 or 180 degrees to adopt a battle formation due to enemy manoeuvre is not permitted.
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CHANGE OF FACING

Post by Churchill » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:25 pm

Thank you Barry for explaining this clearly...phew so no turning of facing from line to front to line to flank to shoot at people on your flank who are rallying.

Cheers......Ray.

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Post by J Anderson » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:15 pm

Hi barry

I accept your explanation thanks for your effort in replying. If a unit has turned the 90 degrees and is now lined up one base behind the other, is that considerded a column or still a line for movement purposes because my point was that as it takes a full turn to form a column from line it would technically only take half a turn to form a column from a 90 degree turn.

jim.
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Post by J Anderson » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:38 pm

Hi

So just to recap an infantry unit in line who is not being charged may turn 90 degrees with each base stacked one behind the other facing their new direction which takes half a turn with a form marker in place, may also then expand one base either left or right for an other half turn in the same turn. In the following turn if that unit has a form marker, then for another half turn it may expand it`s remaining base which leaves a half a turn left but if it has a form marker it may not move for the remaining half turn. SO a 90 degree turn will cost one and a half turns to accomplish if it wishes to remain in line. Please tell me this is how you do it as I`m even more confused than I was before.

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Post by Churchill » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:05 am

Hi Jim,

This is how I see it and I'm sure Barry will correct me if I'm wrong :wink: line to column or vice versa takes a full move with a Form marker.
Line turning 90 degrees or 180 degrees takes half turn with a Move marker.Because the unit started in line it only has half it's line movement left to move no matter what formation it is now in.Next turn it moves in it's new formation wether in column or in line.
If a unit in line wishes to change it's facing it has two options it can either wheel to face either flank (Double Movement Cost i.e. 2") or turn 90 degrees with a Move marker this takes half a turn then this leaves half your turn to expand by one base to either side of your command base.The following turn you must place a Move marker and expand again to complete the change of facing.This time you have a half turn left for movement, but in the formation you ended in (i.e. infantry Line 2").So your right about taking one and a half turns :)
Turning 90 or 180 degrees to adopt a battle formation due to enemy manoeuvre is not permitted.
The thing you've got to try and remember is that there was very little tactical manouver on the battlefield once ordered forward.It was hard enough for the Officers and N.C.O.'s to keep their men marching in line never mind wheeling,inclining or turning.

Hope this helps........Ray.

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Post by J Anderson » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:19 pm

Hi

Right then so a battalion not being charged places a move counter then rotates it`s middle base (as in the rule that states that the centre stand is the one to form on ). The other two base line up behind the the first for half a move ,then one of the rear bases can move to expand out for the remaining half a move. In the next turn providing it has been given another move order it can then expand it`s remaining base out for a half turn then once the line has been completely reformed in a different direction it can then move 2" ( being in line as it has already spent half expanding it`s last base out) with it`s half of the movemet allowance. So it has taken 2 turns to turn 90 degrees to it`s left or right and end up in the same formation(line) as it started. I think this is probably the best way I can describe how I think it now happens with the descriptions I have been given. I just need a nod from the great man himself.

Jim
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Post by barr7430 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:54 pm

Lads,

there are several interpretations which can be placed on the situations you have described. I am not going to judge them as right or wrong and I am not dodging the issues.
Here are the main principles behind the thinking:

1. Armies of this period were really the beginnings of the modern armies. There was little or no standardisation of uniforms, equipment and training.

2. Some units could barely stay together in step (in fact I am not sure but I don't even think marching in step was a prerequisite).

3. As a consequence of the above I have not allowed Inclining and have made Wheeling as difficult as I possibly could - it is slow and painful because it would have been!

4. Having seen many cases of
a. Nippy battalion syndrome (reduced frontage units squeezing through gaps and generally getting into unfeasible positions due purely to their size)
b. Quick turns to face from line to column or column to line in half a move

I wanted to eliminate a & b. The former by not removing casualties until a unit is below half strength and the latter by insisting that any 'formation change' is dealt with in a FULL TURN OF MANOUEVRE ie a 'FORM' order.

All sorts of battlefield redressing would have been very difficult so both sides should be equally disadvantaged by this rule(unless you are GNW Swedes) .
In many respects the 90 degree turn is a bit of a redundant rule but is still necessary to prevent units being caught in the flank or rear(in this respect it prevents automatic routs by this kind of contact).
The 180 degree turn in line or in march column is ok as the men are turning in the same formation. I have a big problem with the 90 degree turn as it could be perceived as a gamey mechanism which I am dead against. If I had gone to this level of explanation in the rules then the book would probably have run to another 20 pages!

I have no problem with helping the debate and I am VERY VERY ENCOURAGED by the level of commitment and interest you lads in the North East are showing to the period and the rules.

So please, don;t stop asking or posting. I don't know that I can answer everything but in cases where I can't.. common sense should prevail. I have met you both and know you to be very nice chaps and not wargaming ranters so that reassures me that whatever you decide.. it'll be alright :wink:

Hope this helps.

B
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CHANGE OF FACING

Post by Churchill » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:29 pm

Thank you very much Barry for taking the time to explain all this it's been interesting to read your reply.If your ever in the North East for a day you would be more than welcome to join in a BLB game of ours and we are planning on putting a BLB game on at Border Reiver in September.At the moment we have a Brigade of infantry each a few cavalry squadrons and guns.Ideally we want to double this and add alot more cavalry.
I like the period and the BLB rules, they catch the flavour of the period very well, there easy to read and most things are straight forward.I agree with you that it's only when "Gamers" try to carry out strange manouvers that we get confused.Recruits of the modern day would struggle with on a parade ground let alone on the battlefields of the late 17th century.Best to keep manouvering simple :wink: Forward, Present......Fire.

Regards.......Ray.

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Last edited by Churchill on Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by J Anderson » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:36 pm

Hi Barry

Your spot on, I`m all for sorting it out ourselves. I`m not a competion gamer never have and never will be. If we can sort it out ourselves I`m sure we`re men enough to sort it out. The thing is when you have the luxury of a forum people tend to get a bit carried away. Tanks for being the voice of reason.

Jim.
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Post by reiver rob » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:33 am

Jim and Ray,
If you're both going to Durham on Saturday you can sort it all out in the car park in the period way.
What are your weapons of choice? Pistols or swords?
Bring your seconds and I'll referee!

Alternatively you can both bring your troops and join in our club game.
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Post by Churchill » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:41 am

Rob,

Swords or Pistols.............Bahhhhhhh.........how about a 8" Siege Mortar....now if I can only find those damned firing instructions and my steel cigarette case....Baldrick. :lol:

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Post by J Anderson » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:13 pm

Hi

C`mon grow up , has to be paper, scissors, stone.

Jim
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Post by J Anderson » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:15 pm

Hi

C`mon grow up , has to be paper, scissors, stone.

Jim
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Post by J Anderson » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:36 pm

Hi Rob

Thanks for the offer Rob but I`ll not be staying that long. I`ll look foward to seeing your game and stopping for chinwag though.

Jim
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Re: CHANGE OF FACING

Post by obriendavid » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:40 pm

Churchill wrote:we are planning on putting a BLB game on at Border Reiver in September.
Ray, a few of us from the South East Scotland Wargames Club normally stop off at the BR show on our way down to Partizan so hopefully we'll get a chance to pop over and say hello.

Cheers
Dave
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