CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Any questions relating to Beneath the Lily Banners rule system.
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barr7430
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:50 pm

Dave
which one of the following middle names did your mother choose for you:

John
Churchill
Marlborough
Earl
Duke
Sarah!
:lol:

you've bitten hard on this one 8)

Reasonably good response I think, but you seem to have neatly navigated around the less positive bits :wink:

Actually, you know I am no great fan of Napoleon so I am afraid I won't nibble on that hook! :lol: The French bias is a scurulous rumour started by R2E players (non French) who were a little disgruntled by some close line calls :shock:

I will consider myself chastised by the devotees of CJ and confine myself to sniping from the sidelines in the fashion of someone we both know and love :wink:

As a parting shot however I would observe that devotees of Marlborough tend to accept almost everything positive about him as gospel. Quoting history or paragraphs from books at me doesn't help much either as somebody wrote it and they too may well also have had an opinion, agenda, patron who wanted a point pushed. As an example look at how some modern historians are rewriting WW2 and airbrushing the British out of anything significant.
Dave, his diaries and letters may well be interesting reading but the art of 'writing for posterity' is an old one. Politicians keep diaries now with a view to publishing them in their dotage to justify decisions or corroborate their version of events. Even you Churchill accolytes have conceded he was an extremely political man who kept all of his options open. Might you not concede that such a shrewd politician and intelligent thinker as you have painted him may also have had the foresight to make his own role appear as difficult as possible, the performance of his allies as poor as possible and the courage of his enemies as fierce as possible?
The fact that the Dutch in particular(having spent so long, so much money, so many lives and so much energy) on fighting the French suddenly between 1697 and 1704 become such a bunch of puddings strikes me as ever so slightly partizan.
Of course, I think Dave slightly missed my point about the Marlborough cult :wink: I never suggested he started it himself. I was, I thought, pointing out that BEFORE he came to prominence, Britain(or England if you prefer) had very little to celebrate miltarily in the preceding decade. This perhaps goes some way to explaining two of the points I was actually trying to make:
1. The reason the NYW is so obscure in the English speaking world is exactly that... the lack of British success and the reason why the army only begins to celebrate its success post Namur 1695.

2. See 1 above... the advent of a 'home boy' hero provides collateral to expunge the frustrations of the previous war AND the bandwagon starts to roll at that point. The bandwagon is rolling along with the rising power and influence of Britain in Europe and further afield hence the cult begins... I think that's how religions start too! Not too many people asking too many difficult questions and all the heads nodding in agreement :lol:

I always was a non conformist :twisted:

Seriously though, I would like personally to read something written by a non English historian and see if there is an alternative perspective on your hero.

Anyone know of anything objective?
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by CoffinDodger » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:21 pm

Image
Marlborough: England's Fragile Genius by Richard Holmes

The title doesn't look unbiased but, it's actually a very good read. He doesn't fawn over Churchill although he's more pro than con. I have it if anyone wants a read of it. (Toggy, it will cost you eight MPs).

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Jim
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Jim O'Neill.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Ben Waterhouse » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:37 pm

I wouldn't trust any man who deserted his annointed sovereign...
Arma Pacis Fulcra

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:43 am

The very book I heard the man talk about. It was supposed to be a 300th anniversary talk about Malplaquet but he missed the date in 2009! said he couldn't talk about the battle in 2010 as it was not appropriate to the anniversary and plugged the book instead. It was a good event. Holmes actually wasn't too biased I must admit. Quite reflective on some of the points I have made also.
Ben, nice to see I am not a lone voice. Although my emphasis is not necessarily on the loyalty aspect but a good point nonetheless.

I once read Meriol Trevor's biography of James II which I have heard described as Jacobite propoganda but I must say I did not find it so..I suppose it depends on your point of view and how much historical ' writing' you are prepared to swallow without challenge.

I am a rather confused soul really.

My politics are undoubtedly Parliamentarian but my loyalties probably Royalist in the British sense of the era... maybe that's why Civil Wars are always so messy! :shock:

I probably would have had a real crisis on my hands regarding what to do! Annoy Dave I suppose :twisted:
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Ben Waterhouse » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:17 am

And we wont go down the "last successful foreign invasion of this Realm", route either...
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by obriendavid » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:05 am

barr7430 wrote: I am a rather confused soul really.
I probably would have had a real crisis on my hands regarding what to do! Annoy Dave I suppose :twisted:
So what else is new? :wink:
With Barry's revisionist policy he'll be telling us next that the Allies actually lost at Waterloo and the Nazis actually won WW2, which could account for all those SS ProjectX figures he keeps hidden away :roll:

I should also make clear in my defence of Marlborough that I am in no way denigrating the abilities of the French commanders who all performed well against other generals but just came unstuck when they had the misfortune to face the great man. I am also in no way taking away the fighting abilities of any of the French and their allied troops who generally all fought hard and long. I would love to be able to find more info about the fighting in upper Germany and Italy and if I was starting to wargame the WSS those are the areas I would aim for or Spain rather than the Low Countries. Barry mentioned to me a couple of weeks ago that he had taken part in a refight of Freidlingen 1702 and I must admit I was very jealous. Those battles are generally more evenlly matched and make for better wargames.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by j1mwallace » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:22 am

I've not long read Corelli Barnets Marlborough. I,m setting up my flag firmly in the Dave O'brien camp. Although I do not have an allied figure in my whole collection the more I've read about corporal John the more i've come to admire him as a statesman and general. Ok he switched sides but was he the only one? Good opportunist! James was very much on the way out ,he was catholic which was firmly against parliamentarian ethics. As Dave said he had a 100% success record. Not many generals can claim that.
His organisational skills and diplomatic skills were formidable. He managed to "keep the heid" with the Dutch politicians and commanded a polyglot army with considerable success.
Having said that I like when my French kick arse. But then again Marlborough at my club is represented by Derek, or Tam.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:41 am

The battling brothers or the battling each other brothers? :roll:

Friedlingen was a good game and we substituted a Grand Alliance army for the French and the French for the Imperialists and knocked it back 10 years. We played it lengthways on a 10 x 5 table. That was in the very early days of my daliance with this period :roll:
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by obriendavid » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:56 pm

Might make a good one day BLB2 game at Whitburn?

I noticed you have not denied your revisionary views! :shock:
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:39 pm

Gentlemen

How do you think Marlborough would match up against Charles XII on the battlefield?

cheers
Edward
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:16 pm

Well, you wouldn't let it lie would you :roll:

As for revisionist views.. I will treat that provocation with the dignity it deserves...
:P

I never did actually get any satisfactory responses from you and the Marlborough Club on the points I made....

1. Anglo centric writing

2. Political expediency of the feelgood factor after the lows of the NYW..Restraint stayed my typing hand when you described it as some minor little war... now who is revising history :roll:
As you well know Scrivener O'Brien the combined armies at Neerwinden amounted to about 130,000. No mention of the tactical genius of Fleurus and Waldeck's total and complete humping there.. oh and eh, Steenkirke but I digress :lol:

I don;t think anyone has actually addressed the original point I made...

Forget whether you think Marlborough was Caesar, Frederick the Great, Alexander, Genghis Khan, Rommel and Dwight Eisenhower combined..

that was not, the point!

The point was the anglocentric adoration which has to an extent hijacked the War of the Spanish Succession. Is it or is it not the case that the english speaking bandwagon has driven through everyone else's achievements at the expense of St John? I saw not even a nod in any of the responses to Eugene's contribution, why the Dutch may have been difficult to deal with, whether Malplaquet was in fact a victory or not.

At the risk of making the point at your expense, ALL of you Marlborough fans have done it again.. your posts prove it! Fairly passive acceptance of the writings of English speakers... ergo it must be true.. I rest my case 8)


WHITBURN: FRIEDLINGEN.. WHY NOT? :wink:
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by j1mwallace » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:41 pm

Barry i will definitely concede the anglo centric point re the writings on Marlborough. it is fairly difficult however to get french or german writings on the subject, I've tried now for several years. My brother lives in France, well Monaco now but despite several trips and a large amount of time browsing bookshops the french really seem to be interested in Napoleon or WW2 and the occupation. strange,
Also I think that if it wasn't for the extremely capable Eugene Marlborough would have had a much harder time.
If your on what ifs. Marlborough vs Eugene . A possibility if Louis hadn't been such an arrogant -.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by obriendavid » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:27 pm

barr7430 wrote: NYW..Restraint stayed my typing hand when you described it as some minor little war... now who is revising history :roll:
Damn! I thought you would have bitten on that hook :twisted:

As to the Anglo-centric writings about Marlborough I have to reluctantly have to agree with you that all the books I have ever read have been by British writers and there might have been some biase there but as I pointed out in my initial reply Marlborough was feted all over Europe on his travels and awarded medals, monetary awards and honours so that would indicate that the other Europeans thought very highly of him. You couldn't really expect the French to look on him too favourably after what he had done to their armies. Perhaps Erwin, Gunter, David Sharpe and other non-anglo's on this forum could add their views on this subject?
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Friedrich August I. » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:44 pm

Barry,

I know that I as an Austrian I should have taken up the gauntlet earlier. Well throughn into the faces of these english egomaniacs while Austrias greatest General was stepped over by all those "St.John"-Lovers.
I did never defended Austrian Leaders and I never will. But Eugene was and still is the only Austrian General with that kind of a genius. No one before nor after him was able to hold a candle to him.

I am not familiar with NYW or WSS as I am quite new to this timeline. So I dont interfere with the Scottish/British quarrels about John Churchill.
All I know is that its allways the winners who write the history. I understand the French when not writing about a time of lost battles, even when they are lost by Generals of the Sun King.

In my understanding this early Years of the 18th Century saw most of the European countries having their greatest Sons alive:

The English had the Duke of Marlborough, France had Louis XIV, Austria Prince Eugene of Savoy, Saxony August the Strong, Sweden Charles XII, Prussia the Great Elector Frederik and last but not least Russia had Peter the Great.

To concentrate on only one perrson as the sole Champion in such a time of glory would be a shame and unfair against all others who fought for their countries rise to power.

The Case rests from my, the Austrian(and the Saxon) side, too.

Günter
Last edited by Friedrich August I. on Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by obriendavid » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:59 pm

Friedrich August I. wrote: In my understanding this early Years of the 18th Century saw most of the European countries having their greatest Sons alive:
The English had the Duke of Marlborough, France had Louis XIV, Austria Prince Eugene of Savoy, Saxony August the Strong, Sweden Charles XII, Prussia the Great Elector Frederik and last but not least Russia had Peter the Great.
To concentrate on only one perrson as the sole Champion in such a time of glory would be a shame and unfair against all others who fought for their countries rise to power.
Well put Gunter! I blame Barry for starting all this nonsense in the first place :wink:
Cheers
Dave
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