CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Any questions relating to Beneath the Lily Banners rule system.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:37 am

Ref The Duke of Marlborough,

It was the WSS and Marlborough I first read/learn about growing up. My forum name 'Captain of Dragoons' comes from a young readers fiction novel based on a character that par takes at Blenheim.

I find the earlier period more interesting now so let me quote the Prince of Vaudemont talking about the Earl Of Marlborough during the War of The League of Augsburg:
Kirke has fire, Lanier thought, Mackey skill, and Colchester bravery; but there is something inexpressible in the Earl of Marlborough. All their virtues seem to be pressible in his single person.
His record in the earlier period
-perform well during the Sedgemoor Campaign
-Commander of the English Division in Flanders
-co-leader of the counter attack at Walcourt
-Captured Cork and Kinsale in Ireland
-Sent to the Tower, out of favour

Winston Churchill goes so far in his 'Marlbrough: His Life and Times' to suggest that if Marlborough was in command of the lead elements of the Confederate Army at Steinkirke instead of Count Solms William III would of had a victory.

However Marlborough never faced Luxembourg. Now there's a great what if.

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:25 am

What is surprising is to find that DOB likes something/someone who is British :shock:

Other than that I an open to persuasion but even on Edward's list pre 1700 it is hardly a sparkling CV....

Sedgemoor... the Royal Army was hardly running up against top quality opposition..
The English 'division' in Flanders did not achieve anything of huge note, neither did the whole Allied Army..
Co Leader of the counter attack a Walcourt... OK that is positive but Walcourt was not a stunning victory.
Captured Cork and Kinsale...well, yes from a relatively headless chicken rump of an ill equipped field army scattered across the south west of Ireland..
Out of favour... who knows what he was intriguing at the time!


And as for Winston, hardly an objective witness!!!!

So far I remain to be persuaded. DOB.. over to you.. what have you got??? :lol:
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by CoffinDodger » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:08 am

Marlborough was a favourite of the Duke of York who later became James VII and II. Now although Séamus an Chaca was no military genius, Marlborough repaid him admirably by eloping with his army into the arms of William III at the first opportunity. No amount of historical whitewash can cover that stain.

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Ben Waterhouse » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:54 am

Aaaanyway, back on track - just ordered 2nd Ed via paypal this very minute; as SWMBO has authorised funds...
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by CoffinDodger » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:04 am

barr7430 wrote: ...So far I remain to be persuaded. DOB.. over to you.. what have you got??? :lol:
Barry,

Marlborough only rose to prominence and did his best work on reaching the age of 50, which bodes well for future publications by a certain well-known rules writer.

Jim
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:58 pm

I'm liking that Churchill Boy more by the minute :D ... Did I ever say I was one of his biggest fans, and when I heard Richard Holmes talk about him I was just captivated by his genius............................ 8)
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:10 pm

Hello Jim

I think you have The Duke of York and Duke of Berwick mixed up.

James II was the Duke of York during Charles II lifetime.

The Duke of Berwick was James II son born on the wrong side of the bedsheets by Marlborough's sister.

Confusing, dukes of this and dukes of that.

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Churchill » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:27 pm

Ray.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by CoffinDodger » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:33 pm

Captain of Dragoons wrote: ...I think you have The Duke of York and Duke of Berwick mixed up.
Thanks Edward and you too Ray. I've fixed it now. I would certainly rate Marlborough up there with Wellington for his later i.e. War of the Spanish Succession campaigns although, by the time he got to Malplaquet, he was losing his touch. He seems however to have had a resurgence with his latest car insurance campaign.... or is that Winston?

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:09 am

Captain of Dragoons wrote:Ref The Duke of Marlborough,
However Marlborough never faced Luxembourg. Now there's a great what if.

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Edward
That’s always been the big intriguing question for me regarding Marlborough.

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He found it less exciting.

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by barr7430 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:08 am

Well I hardly thought I would get away with those comments without a barrage of incoming :lol:

Almost as provocative as those posts on TMP that start...

Empire to Republic.. the worst set of rules in the galaxy?....

Just wait till the magazine article! :shock: (I'll have full cuirassier armour hand stitched by then with reinforced codpiece for my cod.
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by j1mwallace » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:04 pm

So that will be a thimble superglued to the gront of your breeks then!
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by obriendavid » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:43 pm

barr7430 wrote:What is surprising is to find that DOB likes something/someone who is British :shock:
So far I remain to be persuaded. DOB.. over to you.. what have you got??? :lol:
Well where do I start? Probably by agreeing with Barry that in the LOA Marlborough(Churchill) didn't do much but then again nobody really did. It's such an obscure little war at the arse end of the century that even amongst wargamers it and it's characters are virtually unknown, virtually no battles of note except a minor clash somewhere in Ireland but ask any wargamer and most punters about the Duke of Marlborough and they can usually make some comment about it so you can hardly argue like with like.

To complain about the period being named after the top man is also a bit rich, it's not as if he came up with the name and it was only many years later that the title came into general use. I've never heard Barry complaining that the 'Napoleonic' period is named after his hero the Corsican upstart :shock:

When it comes to his ability as a commander I think his record speaks for itself. Never fought a battle he didn't win, never beseiged a town he didn't take, not even 'the beast' could make that claim and once his military career was over he was feted all over Europe and lavished with awards and titles which is hardly what would have happened to someone who was over rated.

What makes his record even more amazing is that not only was he competing against the enemy he was also having to argue, conjol and persuade his lackluste allies to actully do anything constructive. When you read all his letters to and from allied generals and the Dutch authorities it's a wonder he managed to get anything done which is one of the major problems in a multi-national force where his troops were in the minority. Barry, I will lend you my two volumes (if you're extremely careful) of Lediard's 'The life of John Duke of Marlborough' published in 1736 which contains most of his correspondence over the campaigns and makes fascinating reading. In these letters he acknowledges the efforts and abilities of his subordinates, particularily Eugene who was French not Italian and the fact that later historians don't take this into account again is not Marlborough fault.

You acknowledge his ability at Blenheim as a great victory which it was but tactically not his best and also helped by French incompetence. I feel his battle at the Schellenburg was much more important in this campaign and just added further surprise to a campaign that totally flat footed his enemy and took them by surprise at every point. I can't think of any commander of that period that could have organised the march of their army from the Netherlands up to Bavaria with such supreme skill and confidence and then defeat the enemy in every time they clashed.

I would put forward Ramillies as his greatest victrory and his skill of switiching forces from one flank to another during the battle behind hidden terrain on interior lines was majestic and even Nappy would have been proud of that one. Apart from the four major battles you mentioned I would put crossing the Brabant Lines and Ne Plus Ultra as some of his greatest achievements where he completely wrong footed his enemy as well as his allies to take these supposedly impregnable fortifications with minor casualites is again something that would never have been thought of or attempted by his contemporaries.

For the whole of the WSS Marlborough stands head and shoulders above everyone else for his military ability, his organisational skills and probably even more important his political skills in persuading his lack lustre and flat footed allies (their commanders, not their troops) to actually do something constructive and take the war to the enemy.

I also hope that Barry hasn't done a 'Ratner' and rubbished his rules thereby putting off lots of gamers who might have been tempted to use the for the 'Marlburian' period, sales will tell I suppose.

The defence rests M'Lud! :lol:
Cheers
Dave
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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Juan Mancheño » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:24 pm

It is interesting to see that Marlborough is not an absolute "Star" for all of you... (where is the "shieldwall" protecting British "products"?).

I think he was a very clever man of his age, able to change his coat in the right moment but able also to command an international army (something very difficult even today) and win - or not loss - battles with it.
I expect he will have his supplement for BLB 2 (with a chapter for the War in Spain, please :mrgreen: ).

And... How many of us have not his model waiting for a battle?

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Re: CAN NOW BE PRE ORDERED

Post by Churchill » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:18 pm

Ray.
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