BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified units

Any questions relating to Beneath the Lily Banners rule system.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm

Churchill wrote: It also states that the English forces were not so forward in discarding the "Queen of Weapons", as some authorities have claimed.On 20th June 1702 we find the commanding officers of six regiments currently under marching orders for Ireland being advised as follows by the Secretary of War: ...Her Majesty's pleasure is that all pikes already issued to the Regiment of Foot under your command be returned into the Stores of Ordnance, in lieu of a sufficient number of muskets which you are first to receive out of the said stores.
Ray.
A modern example would be that the Brits actually took Centurian tanks to the 1st Gulf war and some wargamers reading that would insist that their opponent had to use some in his armoured formations but the detail is that they were only used by the engineers as armoured dozers and as far as I am aware they never fired a shot in anger. Another example is in Carlisle castle where there are a couple of Ferret A/C's which are still listed on the regimental strength so they are cleaned and painted but again nobody expects them to actually get used. I'm sure that was the same situation with pikes.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by bibio » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:17 am

Blenheim by David Green(1974) clearly shows pike with Tallard in the coach, the only other thing it could be as you do'nt see the carriers are lances but that would open up another kettle of fish.

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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by Churchill » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:25 am

Ray.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:40 am

bibio wrote:Blenheim by David Green(1974) clearly shows pike with Tallard in the coach, the only other thing it could be as you do'nt see the carriers are lances but that would open up another kettle of fish.
iain
Is that a painting produced in 1974?
You have to be careful using some of these images as evidence as I've got a copy of 'La Marche' after de Hondt, probably produced by Le Clerc and Van der Borcht which clearly show Marlborough and his generals in full plate Romanesque armour and plumed helmets. Saving throws anyone?
Interesting discussion though and without all the bitching that goes on in PMT.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:48 am

Ignore my previous question I just realised I had the book.
Is that the only pictorial piece of evidence you have?

That appears to be a painting produced by someone else, can't see an artists name but looking at some of the other badly painted details in the painting I would be a bit sceptical especially the Green officers uniforms with white or orange facings and the monks in the foreground.
My point about M and his generals in armour still stands, nobody would suggest that they should be armed like the figures in the tapestry.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by barr7430 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:16 am

Officer could be a Dane OR a badly represented Wallooner in Imperial service Dave?
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:34 am

barr7430 wrote:Officer could be a Dane OR a badly represented Wallooner in Imperial service Dave?
It could be but the quality of detail on all these tapestries is amazing so I doubt they would get it wrong, especially with Marlborough overseeing production of these, especially at the early stages.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:58 am

Churchill wrote:Hi Iain,
Could you post the picture on here so we can all see, as the only book I have found by David Green is on Blenheim Palace and he's a modern writer. Ray.
Ray, I've tried searching the net for the pic but can't find it. Unfortunately Green doesn't acknowledge in the book where the illustration came from or who did it. I'll take it into Claymore tomorrow and get Barry to take a pic.

Looking at the illustration, judging by the cross hatching it is a lithograph and part of a larger illustration as certain parts are lettered so there's obviously an information panel somewhere which means this is only part of a larger picture and it has probably been hand coloured by someone else at a different time hence the strange uniform colours.

If you only use that part of the illustration as evidence then you could argue that the whole allied army is armed with pikes as you can't actually see anyone with a musket. That's the problem of only using one piece of evidence in isolation and conveniently ignoring all the other evidence that's out there.

If you look at the tapestry 'The Capture of Duisburg' designed by Van der Muelen for Louis IX in the 1670's you can't see any troops armed with pikes but I haven't heard of anyone using that as evidence that the French had given up using pikes by that date. The same also goes for 'The Battle of Fehrbellin' woven for Fredrick William of Brandenburg in 1686 by Pierre Mercier, not a pike in sight.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by Churchill » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:08 pm

Ray.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:20 pm

iain1704 wrote: I take it from your comment that you did not bother to read the list of contributors to Dumont at the front of the book. If you had you would have discovered that they were active eye witnesses to all of Marlboroughs battles.
Iain, like Ray I'm not convinced by the illustration but I would be interested to read any of the eyewitness accounts from these contributors and what they actually said about the use of pikes in the WSS battles.

Ray, I forgot to get Barry to take a pic of the illustration in the Dean book mainly because we were both so busy talking to people at our Claymore display game, we didn't even manage to take any pics of the game either but it was great to meet up with so many people from the forum.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:56 pm

iain1704 wrote:Dave
The problem is that in most accounts like this weapon types are not mentioned. Iain
I don't understand why you made a point about the list of contributors if they didn't make any specific comments about pikes being used they hardly count as reliable witnesses. I think we are just going to have agree to disagree on this point.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:36 am

iain1704 wrote: This entire subject has already been dealt with in another thread 'Allies had pikes in 1706' so why are we going over old ground? Iain
Iain, I was only replying to someone else's comment which is why the subject has come up again. I had read all of the previous correspondence and have found it very interesting and it has been discussed by many people viewing our display games but for me and most other people I have spoken with, and it was discussed again at Claymore on Saturday, the jury is still out on this one.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by Churchill » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:05 pm

Ray.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by obriendavid » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:20 pm

iain1704 wrote: I have seen, both English and European on this subject I am correct. I think you will find that most modern writers think the same as me based on the evidence and that Chandler (and his chums) are in fact is the odd ones out.
Iain
Thanks for that Iain but with that comment I'm afraid you've lost my vote, this will be my last comment on the subject others can make up their own mind.
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Re: BtLBv2 - Visual, game and rule effects with modified uni

Post by jezamonos » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:22 am

Some strong opinions there chaps.

For me and my WSS, I won't be including pikes. Not because they weren't or were there, I just don't want to - my fingers ! :D
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