Pre first game questions

Any questions relating to Beneath the Lily Banners rule system.
Post Reply
pogo
Private
Private
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:44 am

Pre first game questions

Post by pogo » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:25 pm

After having a go at the WSS period with Polemos, The Last Argument of Kings (Black Powder) and Maurice, our club wants to have a go at BLB, with an eye on large multiplayer games (yes Barry, we are the bunch next to you in Antwerp who had a champagne start to the day :) )

In preparation of a first game i have been reading the rules extensively, but i end up with several questions:

page 26 Good order and Disorder
phrase "Disorder caused by terrain or interpenetration whilst stationary ceases immediately when those conditions no longer apply"
so a foot unit starting its movement against a Low Linear Obstacle and throwing a 1 for reduction ends its move on the other side of the LLO and is not disordered for musketry ?

page 27 Expand by one stand for 1/2 turn
a foot unit ends with 2 stands in front row and 1 stand behind ? is this a legal formation ? what can they still do in the other 1/2 turn as the requested order is FORM ?

page 37 Removal of casualties
I cannot find a clear definition of the number of casualties a unit (or stand) represents/can take
the text seems to imply that 1 model = 1 casualty, in this logic a foot unit can take 18 casualties so takes away a stand after 9 casualties ? (and a cav unit has 6 so drops a stand after 3 casualties ?) but the table on page 12 allows foot 5 models per stand and cav 2 models per stand, does this influence the casualty calculation ?
for artillery page 33 (the loss of each crew model means the loss of a shooting dice) seems to imply 2/4/6 crew models for the different type of guns ? is a gun removed when it no longer has shooting dice ?

page 39 Charging units
what distance is refered to in "it must be within charge reach allowing..." ?
for horse 14 inch or 15 inch (because of the D2) ? measured from center of its own front to nearest point of enemy ?

page 40 Change direction
if by going straight forward you can just touch a unit (with your front corner or his front corner), do you need to wheel ?
if you wheel must you align parrallel to the target ? (max wheel angle ?)
if you touch do you align the units in full frontal contact or leave them at an angle ?

page 45 Determining who fights
the text "in close combat the entire unit fights" implies that a foot unit at full strength has 3 dice, even if not all stands are in contact ?
the text of the 6 model group is confusing, it is a stand that generates a dice ?

page 46 Close combat proces
point 1 seems to imply that you must keep casualty record PER STAND to determine whether it is over half strength ?

A checkup on a complex sequence (horse on horse and foot on foot seems OK, just horse on foot breaks my mind) shattered over a lot of pages

a unit of Horse is standing by idle and sees a unit of foot in the distance
is measuring allowed ? (i can find a "no premeasure" text for artillery and musketry but not for charging)
suppose it is not, the officer thinks he can reach, so declares a charge
must we measure now if the distance is OK ?
suppose not, the horse must first test their resolve, they go !
must we measure now if the distance is OK ?
suppose not, the foot must now declare their reaction, they choose stand and fire
must they now do their check ?
suppose yes, as the horse will have to take the volley at that distance and then see if they charge home ?
suppose the foot roll a Devastating Volley but the horse have to wheel first, and do not get to short range because they throw 6 on wheel reduction , what happens ?
if the horse can reach the foot fire distance but will not reach the foot, what happens ?
then there is the test to halt a charge which will fail to contact, at what point in this sequence does it happen ?
suppose the horse have enough distance, they move up to the foot fire distance, take the volley, then take a charge home test ?
if they get 2 casualties by the volley, they have a -1 morale modifier ?
suppose the foot is all musket Guards at close range with first fire, who throw 2 six, they blow away the horse unit with 6 casualties ?

i now, a lot of "suppose" and "what's that" but i want our first game to run as smooth as possible without to much book consulting/arguing to slow things down

Alex
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5851
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by barr7430 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:22 pm

ALEX,

LET ME SAY THAT ANYONE WHO STARTS A WARGAME WITH A GLASS OF CHAMPAGNE HAS A LOT TO TEACH THE REST OF US!

I will be happy to answer all of your questions but right now I am about to leave for home from the Middle East, if none of my good friends have answered by Tuesday, I will try and oblige.

Regards from the Desert!

B
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
flick40
Major General
Major General
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm
Location: Kansas City , Mo
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by flick40 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:53 am

See if this helps

page 26 Good order and Disorder
phrase "Disorder caused by terrain or interpenetration whilst stationary ceases immediately when those conditions no longer apply"
so a foot unit starting its movement against a Low Linear Obstacle and throwing a 1 for reduction ends its move on the other side of the LLO and is not disordered for musketry ?


As long as the entire unit crosses the obstacle they are no longer disordered. Units hung up in crossing, i.e. did not completely clear the obstacle, are disordered until the entire unit has crossed. In musketry, Rank firing still take -1 for moving and platoon firing do not get their +1 for not moving

page 27 Expand by one stand for 1/2 turn
a foot unit ends with 2 stands in front row and 1 stand behind ? is this a legal formation ? what can they still do in the other 1/2 turn as the requested order is FORM ?


This is mainly a clarification of movement. Expanding/contracting seems a left over of an earlier version of BLB 2.0 in the testing process. You may mostly ignore it, as a Form order is needed to change formation. It also applies to a foot unit refusing a flank during a charge. Barry may have more on this. But a unit with 2 stands in front and 1 behind is not a valid formation. A unit is either in line or in column.

page 37 Removal of casualties
I cannot find a clear definition of the number of casualties a unit (or stand) represents/can take
the text seems to imply that 1 model = 1 casualty, in this logic a foot unit can take 18 casualties so takes away a stand after 9 casualties ? (and a cav unit has 6 so drops a stand after 3 casualties ?) but the table on page 12 allows foot 5 models per stand and cav 2 models per stand, does this influence the casualty calculation ?
for artillery page 33 (the loss of each crew model means the loss of a shooting dice) seems to imply 2/4/6 crew models for the different type of guns ? is a gun removed when it no longer has shooting dice ?


Each Foot stand is 6 casualties (18 for the battalion) no matter how many figures you use
Each horse sqdn is 6 casualties no matter how many figures you use per stand
Removal of the stands by the rules isn't done until a unit takes 50% casualties. In our games we rarely remove stands, it just looks better.

For the gun question, yes

page 39 Charging units
what distance is refered to in "it must be within charge reach allowing..." ?
for horse 14 inch or 15 inch (because of the D2) ? measured from center of its own front to nearest point of enemy ?


refers to the core distance

page 40 Change direction
if by going straight forward you can just touch a unit (with your front corner or his front corner), do you need to wheel ?
if you wheel must you align parrallel to the target ? (max wheel angle ?)
if you touch do you align the units in full frontal contact or leave them at an angle ?


You do not need to wheel to 'square up' on the charged unit nor do you square upon contact. You should however wheel to get as much of your unit facing the enemy as your charge allows. Again its not a game of inches but gentlemanly agreement.

page 45 Determining who fights
the text "in close combat the entire unit fights" implies that a foot unit at full strength has 3 dice, even if not all stands are in contact ?
the text of the 6 model group is confusing, it is a stand that generates a dice ?


The entire unit fights, 3 die full strength, 2 or 1 die depending on the circumstance and horse sqdns get one.


page 46 Close combat proces
point 1 seems to imply that you must keep casualty record PER STAND to determine whether it is over half strength ?


You will need some form of record keeping yes, paper or a die for each stand. We just use a master sheet per side. (see the one in the rule book, it allows for tracking by stand)

A checkup on a complex sequence (horse on horse and foot on foot seems OK, just horse on foot breaks my mind) shattered over a lot of pages

Yes it can seem that way as many rule details are in various sections. As you play though it all clicks.

a unit of Horse is standing by idle and sees a unit of foot in the distance is measuring allowed ? (i can find a "no premeasure" text for artillery and musketry but not for charging)

Our group measures after declaring the charge.


if the horse can reach the foot fire distance but will not reach the foot, what happens ?

Remember; foot defensive firing is a reflection of officer control and troop discipline in the face of a charge, not the actual range at which they fire. Don't move the horse unit to the range of defensive fire, move it to contact. If it gets blown away simply remove it, if it fails to charge home measure the retreat from the target unit.

suppose the foot is all musket Guards at close range with first fire, who throw 2 six, they blow away the horse unit with 6 casualties ?

It's happened, foolish horse. One should be mindful of charging formed foot units in good order, especially one of quality.

Barry and others can fill in any gaps.

Joe
"Is that your opinion or the game masters ruling?"
pogo
Private
Private
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:44 am

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by pogo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:42 am

thanks for the answers so far Joe

however the following confuses me even more
flick40 wrote:See if this helps

page 39 Charging units
what distance is refered to in "it must be within charge reach allowing..." ?
for horse 14 inch or 15 inch (because of the D2) ? measured from center of its own front to nearest point of enemy ?


refers to the core distance
what do you mean with "core distance" ?
normal horse move of 8 inch or
normal charge move of 14 inch before the dice throw or
normal charge move with added distance so 15 or 16 inch
flick40 wrote:
page 45 Determining who fights
the text "in close combat the entire unit fights" implies that a foot unit at full strength has 3 dice, even if not all stands are in contact ?
the text of the 6 model group is confusing, it is a stand that generates a dice ?

The entire unit fights, 3 die full strength, 2 or 1 die depending on the circumstance and horse sqdns get one.
do i understand you correctly
a foot unit = battalion = 3 stands of 6 models = 3 dice if all stands are at full strength, less a dice for each stand with 4 casualties
a horse unit = squadron = 2 stands of 3 models = 1 dice ???
page 46 seems to give the horse unit 2 dice if all stands at/over half strength


Alex
User avatar
flick40
Major General
Major General
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm
Location: Kansas City , Mo
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by flick40 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:02 pm

Sorry Alex,

My reference to core distance is the basic charge distance before the D2 is rolled.

See P. 45 Determining who Fights. Basic combat element is a 6 model group equating to a full strength foot stand or horse squadron (usually modeled on 2 stands). Every 6 figure stand gets a die in melee, foot have 18 figures on 3 stands = 3 dice and a horse sqdn has 6 figures on 2 stands but only get the 1 die.

As always Barry may provide further clarification as needed.

Joe
"Is that your opinion or the game masters ruling?"
pogo
Private
Private
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:44 am

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by pogo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm

flick40 wrote:Sorry Alex,

My reference to core distance is the basic charge distance before the D2 is rolled.

See P. 45 Determining who Fights. Basic combat element is a 6 model group equating to a full strength foot stand or horse squadron (usually modeled on 2 stands). Every 6 figure stand gets a die in melee, foot have 18 figures on 3 stands = 3 dice and a horse sqdn has 6 figures on 2 stands but only get the 1 die.

As always Barry may provide further clarification as needed.

Joe
thanks Joe,
was confused between 1 stand = 1 dice and 6 model group = 1 dice
jason le peintre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:04 pm
Location: Yerres - FRANCE
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by jason le peintre » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:21 am

I don't want open another topic and it's my first game too.

For the moment, only four questions on segment movement:

1. On basic of movement, infantry move 4'', 2'' if wheel but rules doesn't define wheel (or i see bad, it's possible too!) i play several rules and wanne be sure that rules for BLB is:
One corner don't move, other move up distance 2''.
- Can i make 1'' in wheel (i.e 2'') then 2'' forward?
- Flank move is allowed?
- Oblique movement don't allowed by exclusion (Sweden can make this I think)

2. More general, when two players have move order. Who play first? simultaneous movement is cool but:
i explain (with diagrams, big budget :lol: )
Situation:
Image

First solution, I don't wait ennemy movement
Image
So I'll be in danger.

Second solution, i wait french move:
Image

So i french think like me, the game is freeze, who play first to fluidize the game?

thank you very much!
User avatar
obriendavid
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2557
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by obriendavid » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:14 am

If both players have movement orders and it's going to be critical then I would suggest that they move in quarter moves. You could roll a dice to see which side moves first.
Cheers
Dave
jason le peintre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:04 pm
Location: Yerres - FRANCE
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by jason le peintre » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:56 pm

obriendavid wrote:If both players have movement orders and it's going to be critical then I would suggest that they move in quarter moves. You could roll a dice to see which side moves first.
Cheers
Dave
Thank you to you.
We have an official answer on this subject? or we must made "house rules"?
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5851
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by barr7430 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:19 pm

An alternative is to give move precedence to the most experienced level unit...

that's official I guess! 8)

Although I would definitely say Messrs North and O'Brien are of equal stature to me when it comes to knowing the rules (possibly both know them better!.. o I keep being told by my friends! :oops: )
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
jason le peintre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:04 pm
Location: Yerres - FRANCE
Contact:

Re: Pre first game questions

Post by jason le peintre » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:45 pm

barr7430 wrote:An alternative is to give move precedence to the most experienced level unit...
thank you, i try two solutions, dice and experience.

To begin, I will move First guard..... and last Green.
But unit with same experience, we'll take dice.

I try tonight.

And for others questions?
:D
Post Reply