Newbie Questions

Any questions relating to Beneath the Lily Banners rule system.
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JoeM
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Newbie Questions

Post by JoeM » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:47 pm

Hello all :D New to the forum, a friend and I have played our second game of War of Three Kings and a number of queries have come up that I would appreciate comment to clarify or at least confirm what we did was correct.

1. Does Command radius effect orders? We have played it that units outside their commanders radius or that of the Supreme Commander can’t be given orders?
2. From the example on p68 charging units need to charge in a straight line. How far do they have to charge in a straight line for? We decided on ½ the charge distance.
3. Also, in that example it says that the horse wheeling roll a d6 and subtract that from their movement as well but couldn’t find any other reference to it? Does it apply to both Foot and Horse? Does it apply only in charge situations or all wheeling? Didn’t have to deal with the issue but further clarification would help.
4. When Horse try to charge Steady Close Order Foot and fail their morale it says they “do nothing”? Does that mean they literally stay in place and don’t move at all?
5. What is the move distance if you want to move your Foot unit back but still facing the enemy? Is it allowed?
6. While I understand about road movement in Ireland what about in the Low Countries?
7. Re-throws- do you roll one dice for each HIT or simply one dice for all HITs so that a unit that has multiple HITs will either suffer all HITs or none? We have been re-rolling all HITs.
8. Couldn’t find any modifiers for artillery enfilade shooting? Even when they hit a column side on it doesn’t count as Dense target?

Thanks in advance for any responses.
Joe
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barr7430
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by barr7430 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:39 pm

Hello Joe - just acknowledging these Qs - will get to them asap

thanks for your patience
cheers

B
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

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JoeM
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by JoeM » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:00 am

Thanks Barry and have a couple more for you;

1. In the rules artillery have a -2 dice modifier for new target but as small/light guns have only 2 dice to start with does that mean they don't fire unless they are close or some other positive dice modifier applies? I'm assuming that new target modifier applies even if the gun is already set-up at the start of the game but not if it is bombarding a BuA?

2. In your definition of "Steady" (pp102 & 103) you make the point that this is a psychological state as opposed to Disorder. You also make the point on p105 that a "score of 5+ is a pass, the unit is designated as Steady". So the question is in the morale check tables whenever a unit scores 4 or less it should also be classed as NOT Steady even if not stated? It is noted in some results but not others e.g. "Stop No Contact Charge" & also for Horse "Seen Friendly Foot Rout/Commander Killed".

Thanks
Joe
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by flick40 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:36 am

Here's how I see how the rules would apply in your given situations.

1. Does Command radius effect orders? We have played it that units outside their commanders radius or that of the Supreme Commander can’t be given orders? It only affects the positive and negative moral and other modifiers to a unit if the brigadier or CinC are within that range.

2. From the example on p68 charging units need to charge in a straight line. How far do they have to charge in a straight line for? We decided on ½ the charge distance.Good question, I found no reference but would say D6 inches and then attempt to stop the charge with the moral check. Barry?

3. Also, in that example it says that the horse wheeling roll a d6 and subtract that from their movement as well but couldn’t find any other reference to it? p.68 above the example is the ruleDoes it apply to both Foot and Horse? p.68 both Does it apply only in charge situations or all wheeling? Charges only, wheeling in movement is the total wheel made

4. When Horse try to charge Steady Close Order Foot and fail their morale it says they “do nothing”? Does that mean they literally stay in place and don’t move at all? p.66 they cannot perform any voluntary action in a turn they attempt to charge, i.e do nothing unless charged. It's a gamble for horse to charge close order foot with good cohesion.

5. What is the move distance if you want to move your Foot unit back but still facing the enemy? Is it allowed? No, foot in line moves forward and wheels only, baring a moral check result

6. While I understand about road movement in Ireland what about in the Low Countries? Roads suck in the 16/17th century, even in heaven

7. Re-throws- do you roll one dice for each HIT or simply one dice for all HITs so that a unit that has multiple HITs will either suffer all HITs or none? We have been re-rolling all HITs. You re-roll the dice that missed or hit to see if they truly hit or missed.

8. Couldn’t find any modifiers for artillery enfilade shooting? Even when they hit a column side on it doesn’t count as Dense target? pg. 74. I wouldn't give it to a column side but yes to the side of foot/horse in line. Barry can give his thought for the rule written as it is, but you can always house rule it

1a. In the rules artillery have a -2 dice modifier for new target but as small/light guns have only 2 dice to start with does that mean they don't fire unless they are close or some other positive dice modifier applies? You always get 1 die I'm assuming that new target modifier applies even if the gun is already set-up at the start of the game but not if it is bombarding a BuA? first part correct, I have not played or read the BUA rules yet

2a. In your definition of "Steady" (pp102 & 103) you make the point that this is a psychological state as opposed to Disorder. You also make the point on p105 that a "score of 5+ is a pass, the unit is designated as Steady". So the question is in the morale check tables whenever a unit scores 4 or less it should also be classed as NOT Steady even if not stated? Horse are Steady, routed or dissolved and there are no negative modifiers in morale for horse like there are for foot that can be shaken. Horse would be considered steady until such time they fail morale. Being not steady only precludes them from making a chargeIt is noted in some results but not others e.g. "Stop No Contact Charge" & also for Horse "Seen Friendly Foot Rout/Commander Killed". To my knowledge the only time Steady comes into play is when making a charge for both horse and foot and morale/combat for foot. I'll defer to Barry for final clarification

Joe
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by JoeM » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:40 am

Thanks Flick40 for the responses and will wait for Barry to clarify some of the points you have highlighted. However, not comfortable with the command rule if that is the case as troops can be at one end of the table and their leader at the other without penalty for command? Don't like that so we'll stick to our House rule. Also, no rearward movement other than by wheeling seems extreme since it was a manoeuvre that required the troops to about face march back and about face again if they wanted to face the enemy. I would have thought Drilled or Veteran troops would be capable of it with each about face taking say 1/2 a turn so you could end with your back to the enemy if you did it once in combat range.

Thanks again
Joe
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by j1mwallace » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:24 am

Joe
We have always played that troops can move backwards facing the enemy at half speed whilst maintaining good order . Its a valid tactic similar to retiring rank . It has certainly worked for us and we are long time players .
Enfilade or column is a dense target. There is no column of attack. So really we are talking column of march or line .
Barry has always played it that way at our large games .
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by barr7430 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:40 pm

Hello Joe,

Joe and Jim have helped out tremendously here and thanks for that Chaps. I have been otherwise engaged :roll:

Some further clarification perhaps but I will precis with the statement..

If you don't like something in a rule set you can change it. It does not upset me. The customer buys the rules and can do what they please. There are however good reasons why the mechanisms are, as they are. One of these is that over the past 20 years or so I have done ALL the tinkering that players have done since and arrived at the current mechanics.

The most common reason gamers tinker with rules is that the as written version jars with their own views/preconceptions of reality and thus, rationale for change is already seeded in their minds. Another reason is, they played a couple of times, got a bad result and because of that want to change the bit that screwed up their plan. Happens a lot.

Here are some core facts which explain some of the mechanisms above:

1. Orders. Command radius does not affect the ability of a unit to act as often colonels would make tactical decisions about their regiments (which they often paid for). This was not the Napoleonic age of nationalism, patriotism, complex staff corps, signal flags etc. It was the birthing room of modern warfare - professionalism was learned not trained. Tactical systems of deployment, fire control, cavalry tactics were the prerogative of the proprietor not the Generalissimo. Being proximate to your Brigadier/OC provides moral bonuses and allows a specific order - DEFEND to be changed. Otherwise, if order allowance is available then units are free to act. Why a brigadier would be at the other end of the table from his brigade is questionable. Individual units should not be wandering off at random. Brigades should where possible stay together and within the normal command radius for support.

2. In an age when march rates were less than 40 paces per minute, units did not perform cadenced movement and tactics were slow and linear - the most important thing was to be in the right formation in the right place at the right time. If you screw that up you will die. Hence, movement, formation changing etc are slow and difficult. I don't subscribe to moving backwards at half speed and only use that 'house rule' in large games to keep the game play fluid. A unit should take 1 turn to formation change (ie about face), one turn or more to move back and a final turn to face about - because - that's what they did! There was very little training - you got a uniform and a weapon. You were shown the basic movements of loading and firing. You were not taught to march in step, incline, double, change into column, skirmish etc. Lines were slow and clumsy. This is also why wheeling is at half rate under normal circumstances. In a charge the change in direction is made a random variable resulting in some doubt as to whether contact will actually be made. Charging is a risky business, not maths.

3. Minimum forward movement to gain charge bonuses is 3 inches for Horse. This does not apply for Foot.

4. Artillery in field engagements was more of a psychological weapon than a battle winner. The -2 on new target is not -2 dice but -2 on the 'to Hit' score ie 6 becomes 8 on the first shot on a new target unless a master gunner is attached. A line which is shot at down its length is a dense target - there is also the 'shot through' rule for units close together. Guns were often under individual control and did not act as batteries firing in unison like later periods.

I hope that together with Joe's detailed comments and Jim's contributions this helps you Joe. It's a fascinating period but you have to be prepared for your army to not do what you want it to! That is part of the fun and the command challenge.

I truly hope you enjoy gaming this period and can avoid some of the common traps in thinking which abound. Many are created by partizan historical accounts.

Very best

Barry
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
JoeM
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by JoeM » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:10 am

Thanks for the responses Barry and Jim.

Barry I'm not familiar with wars of the 1690's and earlier, so my comments have been more to do with the Wars of Spanish Succession in mind. I take your point that my preconceptions will differ from yours and I'm sure many other gamers so I appreciate your forbearance that rules might be tweaked to satisfy those biases :roll:

We've enjoyed the games we had, to the extent that my opponent has started to build an army of the period - not bad for a Napoleonic diehard and I think a testimony to the rules and support for them :D

So thanks again Barry and you'll probably be hearing from me after our next battle.

Cheers
Joe
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by barr7430 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:56 am

Hello Joe,

as long as you are getting the answers you need then we're in the right place!

Very best and Good gaming!

B
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Re: Newbie Questions

Post by flick40 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:59 am

Thanks Barry and you're correct, don't be shy to post rules questions here Joe. I was heavily involved in the 2nd edition of the rules so I have a solid background with some of Barry's intentions that still apply to this version. I unfortunately didn't have any input to this version while it was being developed so I have had to learn and interpret as well.

They are a solid set of rules that are fun and challenging once it is accepted that this earlier period was one of changing weaponry, changing tactics, changing alliegences and at times complete baffoonery. Do what you need to the rules to make it enjoyable for your group cuz if you're not having fun why play.

Joe
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