Poll on The Miniatures Page

Post by **barr7430** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:33 pm

nice comments and much appreciated. I don't know why I have never 'bitten' on the cynical MrA before. The site is somewhat of a repository for the 'weird' of the hobby.

Post by **barr7430** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:36 am

Having now had the 'privilege' of seeing Mr Armintrout's response to Clarence, I can sum it up thus...

Lame.

It is empty and devoid of any sense of ownership for actions. I have never had any interaction with TMP's owner before bu this has somewhat coloured my opinion of his/the site's modus operandi.

By his works shall ye know him

j1mwallace · Post by **j1mwallace** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:01 am

I used to visit TMP site daily. Now however i've noticed its once every couple of weeks or so. More and more the nutters are the only ones who post.Like most hobbies the small minority have a voice far outside of their numbers.
Whilst highly irritating I've not heard of anyone using TMP as a source for
reviews to help with buying decisions.
I've certainly enjoyed RTE.
Keep up the good work lads.

PaulMc · Post by **PaulMc** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:56 pm

Thought I'd add my tuppence worth in. I added a wee idea to the Polls suggestion page. I think I may get banned for this.

wkeyser · Post by **wkeyser** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:29 am

Hi I can understand being annoyed at the wording of the poll but what paul is doing is just going to piss a lot of people off and it is going to reflect badly on the rules. I know it makes no sense but that is the nature of the beast.

I would take a look at the poll and see that in comparison to Black powder there are not a lot of people playing the rules. This should be taken as an opportuinity to raise the number of people intrested in the rules.

Even if you hate TMP there are lots of people that use it for information both good and bad, so we should use it! It is a huge vehicle for free advertising if done correctly, thowing temper tantrums and walking away is not the way to handle this.
William

quindia · Post by **quindia** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:42 am

Sorry, William, I don't see it that way (dealing with the forum, not what Paul did... I have no idea what he posted as I stated I will not be going back there). I've spent the last three years using the free advertising on TMP and somewhere around 80% of the people who bothered to take the poll either had no opinion (why vote?) or HAD NEVER HEARD OF R2E. If the free publicity was worth anything, that number should not be that high from people who frequent the same forum where the poll appeared. There have been dozens of threads featuring R2E on the Napoleonic forum and people who claim to have never heard of the rules on TMP are obviously not Napoleonic players, but rather serial poll voters.

In response to my e-mail to the editor, here is what I was given...

> My name is Clarence Harrison and I am one half of the team that created Republic to Empire and I'd like to know why you chose this quote for the one liner in your poll...
>
> ...the gaming experience is simply awful.

Because I thought the review was particularly harsh, and I wanted to provide an opportunity for TMP readers to provide a fairer assessment via the poll system.

> This is the SECOND time you've started a thread with this quote...

That's because that topic is what initiated the poll - that's how the system works on TMP, first the post, then the poll.

I'm sure there will still be defenders of our rules on TMP, but frankly I'm not going to waste my time. We have constant exposure in the best wargame magazines around, partnerships with some fairly large retailers, and our own websites that draw a fair amount of traffic. We have been happy with sales so far and neither of us has plans to quit our jobs to do this full time. For myself, I truly enjoy this hobby and being able to contribute in some small way is a fantastic addition to the experience.

I wasn't speaking for Barry or Wordtwister or anyone else. My issue was with the editor of the forum who has used that pull quote TWICE now, not the posters or poll takers. The first time, R2E was roundly defended, the review and reviewers revealed as hacks in detail, and the whole thing handled as 'an opportunity to raise interest in the rules'... apparently without much lasting effect on the TMP crowd.

wkeyser · Post by **wkeyser** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:49 am

AS to free advertising, I bought the rules based on the information I found on TMP and I would hazard a guess that the majority of your US gamers found out about the rules through TMP. As to your use of free advertising. I was referring to after action reports and even put links to your scenarios in the Warchest, also other scenarios created as pdfs. The fact is, that TMP gets to a lot more people than all of the magzines combined.

The thing is that Republic to Empire is fighting against is the trend today in rules, that is very simple with a d6 to decide all out comes and preferably battles done in 3 hours or less, Republic to Empire has more depth and more detail than most and that is what you are fighting, not comments by a few very verbal posters on TMP.

The fact is that most of the people on TMP are lurkers as you will find on any site, and they are perfectly able to separate the crap from that which is useful, these are your audience not the few vocal posters that at times contribute very little in value but a large amount to the word count. The average gamers do pay attention and do read the information.
William

Post by **barr7430** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:02 pm

I looked in to see the poll result. I am not sure what exactly I infer from it other than:

1. Lots of people claim never to have heard of them
2. Lots of people with no opinion seem to have too much time on their hands and vote in polls they can't possibly contribute too other than to say 'I don't know' or, make jokes about diapers

.

Clarence has stated his very personal point of view here and although I agree with all of it, it is HIS point of view.

William, I also agree with you about the majority being lurkers and also being able to make up their own minds. Why do I agree (besides the fact that you seem to be a logical and intelligent indvidual

) because I moderate THIS forum. We have 435 users, not all active but many more are active than not. Many log on very frequently but rarely post. We have a core of probably 30-40 fairly to very regular posters and a group of another 20-30 occasionaly posters. The forum is hit frequently and so I appreciate that not everyone wants to share their thoughts. Probably the same pattern as TMP although smaller group and much better behaved

The following info may be a useful summary for those interested:

1. R2E has now sold in excess of 800 copies

2. The distribution figures are not exact but over 50% of sales have gone overseas. I estimate about 150+ into the US.

3. R2E sales are split about 40:60 Direct:Retail/Distributors

4. The book continues to sell steadily and usually spikes after an article has appeared in a mag.

5. Of the people who have actually played the rules, more like them than dislike them.

6. They have received their most positive comments in relation to game 'feel' and outcome relative to perceptions of how Napoleonic battles should play out on the table top.

7. They are not everyone's cup of tea and were never intended to be. They are essentially, the house rulebook for the League of Gentlemen Wargamers, the men I chose to wargame with.

7. R2E was released within the same 3 month period as Lasalle, Napoleon and Black Powder. This was a coincidence. Clarence and I have neither the manpower,the commercial clout nor the ambition of Foundry or Warlord. Lasalle was relentlessly trailed and championed by Sam on TMP for months with a crusading zeal at whichI marvelled but felt disinclined to ape.

8. Lasalle seems to have been adopted mainly by 15mm and competition gamers or 15mm competition gamers. This is a very large catchment group. We deliberately choose NOT to include points driven Army Lists for R2E as I don't really like that kind of game. I have no problems with Lasalle (or any of the other rules) and have corresponded cordially with Sam. His approach on TMP was to be ubiquitous Clarence's and my own was rather invisible.

9. The R2E gaming days and weekenders have been the strongest endorsement of spreading the word. With Dave O'Brien's very able support we have 70% repeat attendance and a sort of viral effect with other gamers when attendees return home and spread the word. These will continue as long as people want to attend.

10. I have a failry bottomless well of enthusiasm to support gamers who want to use the rules. So, as long as the questions are constructive and relevant I (or Clarence or Dave or now Bob, Jim, Ray, Simon and several others) will actively provide interpretation and answers. This tells me that people are actually trying games.. in the US, Canada, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Belgium, Spain and of course the UK.
All to the good.

11. The rules are commercial successful. They generated capital for Clarence and I to fund the next project.. BLB2 and what lies beyond that.

I believe R2E will continue to sell. Lasalle is out of print and not to be reprinted. I conclude that Napoleon was not successful as the feedback seems to be universally poor and I have no opinion that I want to share on it.
Black Powder is a lovely book (or catalogue for the Perry's). It's appeal is wide and that is fine. It was never a competition between any of the sets.

There is a (mistaken) perception and in a few cases resentment here and there about the LoA and the games I run.
I am allegedly Elitist,
My games are not REAL wargames
The games and displays are excessive,
I produce eye candy (in the pejorative idiom).
etc etc...

Well, all I can say in response is ;these games ARE normal, for me. That is the stuff I've got play with. Anyone who has gamed with me knows that I don't suddenly produce the second XI and schlepp it on the table. So, CH and BH will I think survive the slings and arrows and move on to the next project without losing too much hair, sleep or weight (although I could do with shedding a couple of pounds

)

PaulMc · Post by **PaulMc** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:07 pm

How can what I posted reflect badly on Republic to Empire as a set of rules?

What has been proved beyond all shadow of a doubt, is that so many on that site love to criticise (and in the most insulting ways they can think of), many of them have no debating skills whatsoever. Ask them to insult someone on punctuation, nationality, a name or anything else their tiny minds can think of and they are in their element. Ask them to discuss a topic rationally and...oh dear what's all this? Hardly a single post. Can anyone remember any constructive crticism? I certainly can't.

I always chose to be VERY selective when I posted as those of the "terminally hard of thinking brigade" try to drag everyone down to their puerile level. I grew tired of reading YET ANOTHER pathetic poll on who has the best army or how the Romans would still be kicking everyone's butt into even the nineteenth century. It all seemed just a sorry excuse for the jingoistic among some of them to compare the metaphorical length of the US's member.

I won't miss the site. I can find far more reliable and cogent reviews and previews for my hobby elsewhere.

custosarmorum · Post by **custosarmorum** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:58 pm

As the original poster, I feel somewhat badly for have stirred up things on the forum... my intent was to alert those who like the rules to share their enthusiasm. I did not realize that TMP was such anathema here or I would not have mentioned it.

As an eternal optimist, I take a more positive view of the poll than most here. For example, of those who actually rated RtE 42 were positive (6+) while only 33 were negative (5 or less) which means 30% more like the rules compared to those who dislike them.

As to the large number of those who had no opinion or never heard RtE, I do not take this as either negative or some tiype of indictment. After all, the polls appear on the main page, not one of the period specific pages, so a non-Napoleonic gamer might well fall in this category (and it would not surprise me if of 80% of those who visit TMP fall into it). In my case, for example, I only look at a few areas so if I saw a poll on Sci-Fi, or Fantasy, or WWI or a variety of other genres, I would very likely not have heard of a set of rules in said areas, or if I had, I probably haven't played them (although I would probably not answer those polls in which I have not interest... but many others answer them just for the prizes).

Finally, at least one person asked in the comments (and again on the Napoleonic board) where he could get a set of RtE in the US and this, if he is part of a group, might well lead to several sales. I saw the rules discussed on TMP, liked several of the concepts, and bought them. After playing them three others in my gaming circle have bought or ordered RtE. Now I know that is only 4 copies, but if, as Barry said, there were 150 or so US sales, that is 2-3% of the US total. So if a poll can generate just two or three people like me that can have a nice little cumulative effect.

Anyway, my motivation was to let people know how much I liked the rules -- which I do -- and hopefully get more to feel the same way so that RtE becomes more popular and so have more people to game with and more lovely games to watch at Cold Wars and Historicon

Atheling · Post by **Atheling** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:51 am

custosarmorum wrote:although I would probably not answer those polls in which I have not interest... but many others answer them just for the prizes.

You get prizes?

Sorry if this seems flippant but I had no idea that this was taking place. So, the general impetus and motivation driving folk to answer a TMP poll is almost akin to buying a scratch card?

no wonder the polls invite over bearing criticism, distorted ideas and commentry!

Darrell.

wkeyser · Post by **wkeyser** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:15 am

Thanks Barry I can see you are aware of what the TMP polls really mean, not much. However, I still think it is a huge community that can be very helpful in getting more people to try your rules.

As to Paul I will have to defend the TMP community which I am actually quite happy to be a part of. Yes there are idiots on the board and quite a few post on a regular basis, but that is life, lots of idiots out there. However, there are hundreds and hundreds of decent people on that site, and thousands of great posts with lots of information and ideas which only betters our community of gamers all over the world. Is it perfect, well no, but neither are you or I.

Paul how is your post anything other than a rather badly written insult to both the Editor of TMP and its members! First you don’t even indicate in any why what the hell you are talking about. As to “utter drivel” I am afraid your post rates right up there in that category. As to the “editorial” decisions of the editor, well let me see, it was an article published in one of the wargame magazines and was commented on by lots of poster on TMP most stating that it was an unfair comment about Republic to Empire. As to garner a “headline” well he only has to put it on the front page as news to garner a headline, but instead opens it up for comment both good and bad. The poll does show that, not a lot of the people taking the poll play or have heard of the rules, but if you really wanted to be constructive, I am afraid not what you intended, you could have posted a rather more reasonable comment on the Napoleonic Board asking those that play the rules what they like and don’t like or anything along those lines. You probably would have found a lot more people looking favorably on the rules and even a fair number aware of there existence!

So in the future Paul when you are going to post on TMP perhaps you should state clearly what you are referring to rather than posting what came across as some cryptic ramblings about how bad a place TMP is.
William

PaulMc · Post by **PaulMc** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:17 pm

Hi William,

I won't be visiting the site from now on. My purpose in that poll suggestion was to see the reaction to a negative view of TMP and many of it's members.

They are happy when dishing it out, not so when they get some back.

Post by **barr7430** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:54 pm

Custosarmorum,

don't feel bad!

You didn't stir anything up that wasn't there already. I am reasonably able to handle myself in an argument so some of the wilder rantings on TMP when R2E hit the streets were pretty much ignored as white noise. I tend not to dignify the inane with a response. Where I do tend to lift the cudgel is when people make inaccurate comments about mechanisms or misinterpret a rule so badly that it is important to clarify. There has been a fair bit of that too.

I don't think the challenges R2E faced (past tense) were so different to other new rule sets.

Unfamiliarity can provoke 'Comfort Zone' behaviour particularly with the well entrenched view. The size of R2E more than anything caused negativity. That was a gut reaction when the uninitiated wrongly assumed that thick = complex.

I see that passions have been stirred up but I am ok with that. The way we normally disagree on this forum is rather gentlemanly and well mannered.

CoffinDodger · Post by **CoffinDodger** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:16 pm

barr7430 wrote: ...The way we normally disagree on this forum is rather gentlemanly and well mannered.

Aye... right, ya wee bampot, yer skirmisher rules are still shite!

I remain, Your Most Humble and Obediant Servant etc.,

James