Saxon Rifled Muskets

This forum section is open to posts, questions and comments on conflicts between the end of the Great Northern War and the start of the French Revolution. So, Austrian Succession, SYW AND AWI affecionados .. this is for you!
Post Reply
Lochaber
Private
Private
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: S.E. London

Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Lochaber » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:47 pm

Dear All,

Accounts from Minden (1759) describe British infantry engaged with Grenadiers, of the Saxon wing of the French army, who had rifled muskets ('fine and terrible looking fellows'). These stories state that the Saxons were able to fire from beyond normal musket range, which forced the British to advance through this in order to be able to engage.

Can anyone help by:
-confirming that some Saxon grenadiers had rifled muskets?
-providing a Saxon source(s) which backs this up?
-providing a primary source(s) which gives the British perspective?

Thanks.
User avatar
Friedrich August I.
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2074
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Friedrich August I. » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:36 pm

The Time of the 7YW saw Saxon Troops split up into to different Groups, payed and Equipped by their "Hosts". One Part served in the Army of Austria while the other Part was with the French.
This said, the Saxons have been equipped in France so the "Rifled Muskets" may have been of French Origin. It is possible but very unlikely that they got Rifles made by the Weapon Manufacturers in Suhl, who have been the main Suppliers of Firearms for Saxony over 300 Years.
As the 7YW progressed many Empires raised "Frei Korps" with the main role of being Skirmishers/Jägers who would have been armed with Rifles for sure.
Not one of my Sources(Saxon) mention Rifled Muskets but the do note that NCO's and Officers carried a different type of musket as those the Infantry had used.

Sorry for having not more expertise to offer of a rather unsatisfied Period of Saxon Military History.

Cheers,
Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Lochaber
Private
Private
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: S.E. London

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Lochaber » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:27 pm

Thank you for taking the time to respond. My previous queries have been directed towards the French and I was hoping that this new approach might be more successful.

Is there an authority (a military museum perhaps, or musket expert) in Sachsen whom I might approach?
User avatar
Friedrich August I.
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2074
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Friedrich August I. » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:41 pm

I believe that this might be difficult. Even as Saxony boast one of the most complete Military Archive in Germany, dating back to the end of the TYW, Saxony was twice occupied by Prussia, stripped of all Battle Honors by Frederick, and ravaged several times by Wars, i.e., TYW, GNW, 7YW, NAPWA. Each of the Occupiers had nothing better to do than to strip Saxony - of all Military Glory and Documents.

Nevertheless, Saxons, not stupid, copied most Documents and so at least those survived. (Even when Hitler ordered them to transfer ALL their Archives to Potsdam they sent only Copies).

Your best chance may be the following book-
https://www.zinnfigur.com/index.php?lan ... n=E6A1D9E0

or to approach
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/kollektionen/
http://www.archiv.sachsen.de/archiv/bestand.jsp

Hope that helps
Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Lochaber
Private
Private
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: S.E. London

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Lochaber » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:06 pm

Dear Gunter,

Thank you. At least it's a start.
Gunfreak
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Gunfreak » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:37 pm

They would be rifles.
Rifled muskets use the minie ball.
Before the minie ball, rifled weapons were just rifles.


So The Baker rifle used during the Napoleonic wars was a Rifle.
The Enfield 1853 is a rifled musket.
So any rifle used during the 18th century would be a rifle.
User avatar
Friedrich August I.
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2074
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:54 pm

That is not entirely true. There have been "rifled" Firearms far earlier than the System Minie describes.
Minie presented his patent 1849 while the question about the Saxons carrying a rifled Musket refers to Minden 1759, so 90 Years before that.
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Gunfreak
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Post by Gunfreak » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:44 am

Friedrich August I. wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:54 pm
That is not entirely true. There have been "rifled" Firearms far earlier than the System Minie describes.
Minie presented his patent 1849 while the question about the Saxons carrying a rifled Musket refers to Minden 1759, so 90 Years before that.
Yes, as I said, the Baker rifle from 1800 is a rifle, not a rifled-muskets, the hunting rifles used in early 1700 were rifles, not rifled muskets.

Rifled-muskets are specifically weapons that used minie ball or similar system of expanding bullet to catch the rifling.
If a source refers to Saxons using rifled muskets, it's either misunderstanding or miss translation.
They might have used rifles, but not rifled-muskets.
Post Reply