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Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:47 pm
by Lochaber
Dear All,

Accounts from Minden (1759) describe British infantry engaged with Grenadiers, of the Saxon wing of the French army, who had rifled muskets ('fine and terrible looking fellows'). These stories state that the Saxons were able to fire from beyond normal musket range, which forced the British to advance through this in order to be able to engage.

Can anyone help by:
-confirming that some Saxon grenadiers had rifled muskets?
-providing a Saxon source(s) which backs this up?
-providing a primary source(s) which gives the British perspective?

Thanks.

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:36 pm
by Friedrich August I.
The Time of the 7YW saw Saxon Troops split up into to different Groups, payed and Equipped by their "Hosts". One Part served in the Army of Austria while the other Part was with the French.
This said, the Saxons have been equipped in France so the "Rifled Muskets" may have been of French Origin. It is possible but very unlikely that they got Rifles made by the Weapon Manufacturers in Suhl, who have been the main Suppliers of Firearms for Saxony over 300 Years.
As the 7YW progressed many Empires raised "Frei Korps" with the main role of being Skirmishers/Jägers who would have been armed with Rifles for sure.
Not one of my Sources(Saxon) mention Rifled Muskets but the do note that NCO's and Officers carried a different type of musket as those the Infantry had used.

Sorry for having not more expertise to offer of a rather unsatisfied Period of Saxon Military History.

Cheers,
Günter

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:27 pm
by Lochaber
Thank you for taking the time to respond. My previous queries have been directed towards the French and I was hoping that this new approach might be more successful.

Is there an authority (a military museum perhaps, or musket expert) in Sachsen whom I might approach?

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:41 pm
by Friedrich August I.
I believe that this might be difficult. Even as Saxony boast one of the most complete Military Archive in Germany, dating back to the end of the TYW, Saxony was twice occupied by Prussia, stripped of all Battle Honors by Frederick, and ravaged several times by Wars, i.e., TYW, GNW, 7YW, NAPWA. Each of the Occupiers had nothing better to do than to strip Saxony - of all Military Glory and Documents.

Nevertheless, Saxons, not stupid, copied most Documents and so at least those survived. (Even when Hitler ordered them to transfer ALL their Archives to Potsdam they sent only Copies).

Your best chance may be the following book-
https://www.zinnfigur.com/index.php?lan ... n=E6A1D9E0

or to approach
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/kollektionen/
http://www.archiv.sachsen.de/archiv/bestand.jsp

Hope that helps
Günter

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:06 pm
by Lochaber
Dear Gunter,

Thank you. At least it's a start.

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:37 pm
by Gunfreak
They would be rifles.
Rifled muskets use the minie ball.
Before the minie ball, rifled weapons were just rifles.


So The Baker rifle used during the Napoleonic wars was a Rifle.
The Enfield 1853 is a rifled musket.
So any rifle used during the 18th century would be a rifle.

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:54 pm
by Friedrich August I.
That is not entirely true. There have been "rifled" Firearms far earlier than the System Minie describes.
Minie presented his patent 1849 while the question about the Saxons carrying a rifled Musket refers to Minden 1759, so 90 Years before that.

Re: Saxon Rifled Muskets

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:44 am
by Gunfreak
Friedrich August I. wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:54 pm
That is not entirely true. There have been "rifled" Firearms far earlier than the System Minie describes.
Minie presented his patent 1849 while the question about the Saxons carrying a rifled Musket refers to Minden 1759, so 90 Years before that.
Yes, as I said, the Baker rifle from 1800 is a rifle, not a rifled-muskets, the hunting rifles used in early 1700 were rifles, not rifled muskets.

Rifled-muskets are specifically weapons that used minie ball or similar system of expanding bullet to catch the rifling.
If a source refers to Saxons using rifled muskets, it's either misunderstanding or miss translation.
They might have used rifles, but not rifled-muskets.