Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
Upplander
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Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Upplander » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:07 pm

Hi,
Firstly can I say how pleased I am that a board covering the Great Northern war exists and that the information shared so far has been very informative! With this in mind I have a question!
I want to paint a unit of Horse Grenadiers and have opted for Kropotovs regiment. My question is what colour was the uniform? My Osprey book on Poltava has an illustration with the trooper in a blue coat but my Hoglund book (on the Swedish army) mentions a green coat. Tacitus on his excellent site shows the uniform as green but with a question mark beside it. is there some doubt as to the correct colour? Many thanks in anticipation :D

Dave.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Russian James » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:14 pm

I would just comment that green or blue can often be subject to the viewers interpretation...
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by turrabear » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:03 pm

zwequintzow and condrey have the coat as dark green.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Tacitus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:32 pm

The question mark and grey background in my site is my way to tell that only the coat colour is known and that the colour of the facings is speculative.

I used Höglund's book on the Russian uniforms (vol. 2 in the trilogy) as source. He actually does not mention any horse grenadiers uniforms in volyme one. The one Kropotov regiment in that volyme is an ordinary dragoon regiment (Troitski), oddly enough described as having grenadier caps which may be a result of confusion with the real Kropotov horse grenadiers. In the second volyme (which is more comprehensive and contradict facts given in the first volyme) he mention not one but two Kropotov regiments of horse grenadiers. The uniform of the first one (A. Kropotov) is unknown and the other (G. Kropotov) is described simply as: green coat and green grenadier cap.

Angus Konstam only mention one Kropotov regiment. The other one seems to be called Roshnev. I have no idea which of Höglund's Kropotov regiment correspond with Konstam's Kropotov regiment. On my site I have just made a wild guess that G. Kropotov is identical with Konstam's horse grenadiers. Unfortuneatly Konstam's book is the only one I have who give individual names for the horse grenadier regiments in the Poltava order of battle. My main source only writes "a horse grenadier regiment" in each place in the OOB.

All the things I have written above is mentioned in the Swedish text in my site.

I would generally rely more on Höglund than Konstam since the Russians I have come in contact with do not hold Konstam's books in high esteem. They criticise him for having used outdated and unreliable sources. Add to this that his book show clear signs of being written in haste with many mistakes as a result (there are quite a few regiments who are missing in his OOB:s for example).

Höglund however collaborated with the Russian historian Alexander Bespalov when he wrote the second volyme. But even Bespalov may be unreliable. This blog have some very worrying information about his "research":

http://rusmilhist.blogspot.se/2012/04/n ... -been.html
Last edited by Tacitus on Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by turrabear » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:41 pm

Tacitus wrote:The question mark and grey background in my site is my way to tell that only the coat colour is known and that the colour of the facings is speculative.

I used Höglund's book on the Russian uniforms (vol. 2 in the trilogy) as source. He actually does not mention any horse grenadiers uniforms in volyme one. The one Kropotov regiment in that volyme is an ordinary dragoon regiment (Troitski), oddly enough described as having grenadier caps which may be a result of confusion with the real Kropotov horse grenadiers. In the second volyme (which is more comprehensive and contradict facts given in the first volyme) he mention not one but two Kropotov regiments of horse grenadiers. The uniform of the first one (A. Kropotov) is unknown and the other (G. Kropotov) is described simply as: green coat and green grenadier cap.

Angus Konstam only mention one Kropotov regiment. The other one seems to be called Roshnev. I have no idea which of Höglund's Kropotov regiment correspond with Konstam's Kropotov regiment. On my site I have just made a wild guess that G. Kropotov is identical with Konstam's horse grenadiers. Unfortuneatly Konstam's book is the only one I have who give individual names for the horse grenadier regiments in the Poltava order of battle. My main source only writes "a horse grenadier regiment" in each place in the OOB.

All the things I have written above is mentioned in the Swedish text in my site.

I would generally rely more on Höglund than Konstam since the Russians I have come in contact with do not hold Konstam's books in high esteem. They criticise him for having used outdated and unreliable sources. Add to this that his book show clear signs of being written in haste with many mistakes as a result (there are quite a few regiments who are missing in his OOB:s for example).

Höglund collaborated with the Russian historian Alexander Bespalov when he wrote the second volyme. But even Bespalov may be unreliable. This blog have some very worrying information about his "research":

http://rusmilhist.blogspot.se/2012/04/n ... -been.html
while i agree with you that while both of hoglunds books are exellent. his information on the greatnorthern war russian cavalry is not the best and dosn't at time correspont with other sources, condry and kostam .while even his information on the swedes at time can be confusing regarding certain regiments.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Tacitus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:03 pm

turrabear wrote:while i agree with you that while both of hoglunds books are exellent. his information on the greatnorthern war russian cavalry is not the best and dosn't at time correspont with other sources, condry and kostam .while even his information on the swedes at time can be confusing regarding certain regiments.
I am not familiar with Condry and do not know what he has written, but if his information is consistent with Konstam then it may be becaues he has used the same sources as him. And, how am I going to put this gently, the Russians I have come in contact with does really not have any nice things to say about Konstam's books....
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Tacitus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:10 pm

I just looked in Konstam's book and both Condry and Zweguintzow are listed as sources in his book. They may in fact be the very same outdated and unreliable sources the Russians criticised Konstam for using.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by obriendavid » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:43 pm

Tacitus wrote:The question mark and grey background in my site is my way to tell that only the coat colour is known and that the colour of the facings is speculative.
Could you give us a link to your site please?
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by obriendavid » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:47 pm

Tacitus wrote:I just looked in Konstam's book and both Condry and Zweguintzow are listed as sources in his book. They may in fact be the very same outdated and unreliable sources the Russians criticised Konstam for using.
It's a pity you hadn't posted earlier, I was gaming with Angus last night and could have asked him where and what sources he used. He's off killing 1866 Austrians at the weekend so I'll try and ask him the next time I see him.
Cheers
Dave
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by turrabear » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:49 pm

Tacitus wrote:
turrabear wrote:while i agree with you that while both of hoglunds books are exellent. his information on the greatnorthern war russian cavalry is not the best and dosn't at time correspont with other sources, condry and kostam .while even his information on the swedes at time can be confusing regarding certain regiments.
I am not familiar with Condry and do not know what he has written, but if his information is consistent with Konstam then it may be becaues he has used the same sources as him. And, how am I going to put this gently, the Russians I have come in contact with does really not have any nice things to say about Konstam's books....
thanks for that i wasn't aware of this.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by obriendavid » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:07 pm

obriendavid wrote:
Tacitus wrote:The question mark and grey background in my site is my way to tell that only the coat colour is known and that the colour of the facings is speculative.
Could you give us a link to your site please?
Cheers
Dave
It's OK I've just realised what your site is and already have it bookmarked.
Cheers
Dave
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Tacitus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:47 pm

obriendavid wrote:It's a pity you hadn't posted earlier, I was gaming with Angus last night and could have asked him where and what sources he used. He's off killing 1866 Austrians at the weekend so I'll try and ask him the next time I see him.
In your post you can also find the reason why I have avoided until now to say that Konstam's books are not good. This is a forum where Angus Konstam himself has posted in. And him being a Scottish wargamer and this a forum filled with other Scottish wargamers... Well, it is not really enjoyable to publicly criticise a guy in front of his friends. This is especially true if you only have shallow knowledge about the subject you are criticising him for having shortcomings in.

Actually, the problem with Konstam's books are quite generic for this type of litterature. You really need to understand the local language and get access to all scientific articles and archives if you are going to write about such obscure topics as 18th century uniforms in a foreign country. Otherwise you are left with the most easily available works who are more often than not outdated. And just because outdated information from old books keeps getting duplicated in newer books does not make it any more fresh.

I once mistakenly bought two booklets about the Danish army, written by C. A. Sapherson and Anthony Moore. But even though they were written 1997 and 1999 respectively, they were hopelessly outdated. Their uniform info came from a Danish work from 1872 by Vaupel. His information was considered unreliable already when it was first published and it has certainly not changed to the better today.

And in the case of Russia we also have their special history to consider. Communist ideology and Russian nationalism were more important than scientific quality when their scholars wrote about history. And it is my understanding that this mentality still has not completely disappeared from the Russian faculties.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Upplander » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:36 pm

Thanks for the replies and information so far gentlemen. Tacitus, i see you have 3 Horse Grenadier regiments listed for Poltava; Kropotov, Roshnev and Von Der Roop. As there is no information on the uniforms for the last two I assume I am on safe ground if I paint a Horse Grenadier regiment in blue uniforms and call it Von Der Roop or Roshnev?
I think I will stick to Green for Kropotov with the speculative facings which you suggest on your site. I had forgotten about Condray and I do have his booklet somewhere. I will have to dig it out.

What this does illustrate to me is that the subject of uniforms for this period is a complex one! I look forward to seeing what others have to say.
Thank you again.

Dave
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by karamustafapasha » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:16 am

The 3 units were originally Von der Ropp's, G. Kropotov's and A. Kropotov's regiments.

A. Kropotov's was renamed Rozhnov's in 1711. Hogland misses this but see here - http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/resources/C18/ruscav.htm

As far as I can see because this unit wasn't called Rozhnov until 1711 it is a good possibility that the uniforms in Konstam are from that period, assuming they are correct.
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Re: Kropotov Horse Grenadiers.

Post by Angus Konstam » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:19 am

I presume "Tacitus" isn't speaking about every book I've ever written, but the two Osprey booklets on The Russian Army of Peter the Great, and possibly Poltava, 1709. I've written over 50 Ospreys, and about 20 other books. Tacitus' comments make it sounds as if he's read them all, and doesn't like any of them!

However, let's presume he's on about these ones. First, they were written 20 years ago - my first ever books. Second, thanks to a long museum exchange programme with the Tower of London where I worked at the time, I had access to a wealth of Russian information, supplied by the Kremlin Armoury and their staff. That's why I wrote the Man-at-Arms books - I had unrivalled access to material, experts and objects. The result is a group of three books which represented the best available information available in Russia at the time, and yes, they're unashamedly slanted towards the Russian perspective. I speak Russian, not Swedish. Sure, historical research has moved on in the last decade or so - thats exactly as it should be. However, when written in 1993-94 there wasn't anything out there in English, and they therefore put the information out there, whene none was available. I challenge my Swedish critic to say that he's had a similar level of access to Russian sources, and that he's read Russian material on the subject before opening his mouth and criticising everything I've ever written!

That, of course, is the problem with many wargamers. They read one a book or even two, and instantly become experts, able to criticise others. I still stand by these little books, even 20 years after they were written. I also don't intend to get sucked into a lengthy discussion about this either, as frankly, life is too short! I'm sorry this chap feels this way, but I suggest he goes out and buys a copy of "Blackbeard", "Sovereigns of the Sea" or "Piracy: the Complete History" before he criticises my whole body of work over the past twenty years. Then, even if he doesn't like them, at least I'll earn royalties from him!

Angus
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