Best WARFARE Cuirassier Figure for WSS and GNW Danish Horse?

[Dfogleman2]

I am thinking about doing some WSS/GNW Danish cavalry. It appears that the horse had both a kyller and a cloth coat. The article on Dan Schorr's old "Northern Wars" site says that the cuirass was worn over the kyller, but was worn over the coat if the kyller was not worn. Apparently, only the breastplate was worn, but the color illustrations show at least one figure with a full cuirass worn over the coat.

On his excellent site Tacitus indicates taht more than one regiment wore the kyller at Helsingborg or Gadebusch, but it is not clear whether the coat was also worn over both the kyller and cuirass. The color illustrations on the Schorr site show at least one figure with the coat over the cuirass.

Obviously, the coat must have been worn on some occassions or it would not have been issued. Further, a Swedish spy describes the colors of the coats and linings of the Danish cavalry in Scania.

My question is: would the most appropriate figures be (1) those with the breastplate over the coat, (2) those with the breatplate under the coat or (3) those with the full cuirass over the coat? If the coat was not worn, should types (1) or (3) be used (presumably with the buttons shaved off the coats to simulate the kyller)?

Put another way, was the coat worn over the breastplate if the kyller was worn?

I am hoping that Tacitus will chime in.

Thanks,

Dannie

[Tacitus]

The information I have is that the kyller/buff coat was used by the Danes in battle. Otherwise the cloth coat was used.

The kyller offered better protection in battle but was uncomfortable to wear during campaign as it took very long time for it to dry when it got -. For this reason the Swedes stopped using it at the outbreak of the war.

[Tacitus]

...it took very long time for it to dry when it got - ...

I am appearantly not allowed to write the word "w.e.t". Is that a naughty word?

[Dfogleman2]

...it took very long time for it to dry when it got - ...

I am appearantly not allowed to write the word "w.e.t". Is that a naughty word?

Not that I am aware.

[barr7430]

Sorry w e t is a proscribed word due to the links which were being posted to w e t s e x sites... if you're into that sort of thing!

[Friedrich August I.]

According to Dan's researches and described in his 'Notes on the Saxon Army'
I copy in here the description of the coat of the Saxon Cuirassiers:
Coat: From the beginning, Saxon cuirassier wore a buff-leather koller, for want of a better term a buff coat. There were no buttons.
The koller was fastened with hooks and eyes. At least initially, there were no cuffs in facing colors on the koller. Overtime, trim in the facing color or small cuffs in the facing color, may have appeared but without buttons, and even the edges of the coat skirts may have been edged in the facing color. In 1707, the red coat was officially adopted, along with regimental facing colors; however, this probably only confirmed what had already been practice. The red coat could be worn separately or over the koller. A contemporary Swedish painting of the Crossing of the Düna in July 1701, executed in 1707, shows what is probably the Königin Cuirassier Regiment in red coats with facing colors on the cuffs and coat lining. The coat skirts are also turned back.
Nevertheless, the buff-leather koller continued to be worn on campaign through the end of Friedrich August’s reign.

My conclusion of this is that the Koller was more robust on campaign then the coat worn over it so most of the regiments decided to wear the Koller beneath their coat or even without it. Also in terms of weather condition the elk-leather keeps smooth even if it is soggy(w e t).
(I know this from my own experiences because I had a pair of Elk Leather working gloves which I used for heavy duty over 5 Years without damage)
The Cuirass was worn front and back by officers alone over the Koller and by the ranks only the frontplate over the Koller BUT under the Coat.

The Cuirassiers currently available from the Warfare Miniatures Range fit well into the descriptions found in Dan's remarkable work. The codes I use are WLOA 40b, WLOA 41a, WLOA 42b and WLOA 41b.

I use those mostly because they may have looked like that until 1707 when finaly the Tricorn was adapted by all Regiments. I like to believe that only the Officers would have worn the Tricorne earlier because it was the style of the King and the court.

Günter

[Tacitus]

Note that the article on the Danish army in Schorr's old website does not state that the cloth coat and buff coat was ever worn at the same time:

The Tøjhus Accounts show that leather buff coats had colored cuffs, which were probably smaller than the cuffs on the uniform coat. In 1704 leather buff coats are mentioned with red plush cuffs and lace on the arms. The same is described in general in the papers from Ledreborg Estate in 1707. Particularly in the beginning of the 1700-1721 war, all were furnished with the so-called “buff coat”, a long overcoat of heavy elkskin. These were often furnished with long arms; but as a result of wear and tear or as a means of saving money, one can also find buff coats without arms.

On the battlefields where the Danish cavalry fought under Marlborough, the Danish buff coats were coveted booty items, since they offered excellent protection against sword cuts and shot. If the cavalryman wore a buff coat, the regular coat was not worn and the cuirass was worn over the buff coat.

Karsten Skjold Petersen mention in his book: Den Danske Hærs Uniformer i 1700-tallet (2005) that "I kamp bar rytteren køllerten i stedet for kjolen" (= in battle the trooper wore the buff coat instead of the [cloth-] coat). Petersen also states that the buff coat had cuffs made of cloth. And that breast plates were issued in 1707 and 1710 (which were also used by some dragoon regiments).

Before 1707 only the Guard and the first Jyske cavalry regiment had cuirasses.

[maciek]

Before 1707 only the Guard and the first Jyske cavalry regiment had cuirasses.

1. Does it apply to both guard horse regiments (Livgardet till häst and Livregementet till häst) ?
2. Does it mean that Danish horse at Blenheim and Ramillies should be modelled in buffcoats and without cuirass ? (wow!, simply wow!)
3. Which regiments received cuirasses in 1707, those at home or all, including those serving in Flanders ?

[Friedrich August I.]

Maciek,

Did you ever look at Dan Schorr's Website or that what is left of it

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20090220 ... nwars.com/

I am sure that many of your question will be answered there.

Or even try to PM himself. He is a very friendly man and helped me alot with my Saxons.

Günter

[Ben Waterhouse]

Sorry w e t is a proscribed word due to the links which were being posted to w e t s e x sites... if you're into that sort of thing!

Well, well. Every day is a schoolday!

[Tacitus]

Before 1707 only the Guard and the first Jyske cavalry regiment had cuirasses.

1. Does it apply to both guard horse regiments (Livgardet till häst and Livregementet till häst) ?

I got the information by e-mail from Torstein Snorrason ("Op til 1707 har kavaleriet heller ikke kyrasser, bortset fra Garden og 1 Jyske") and I read it as only referring to "Livgardet till häst" ("Garden" = "the Guard" in Danish).

In Sweden "livregemente" ceased to be a synonym to "garde" about 1680 and became a term for high status regiment of lower rank than the Livgarde. I think the same thing happened in Denmark.

2. Does it mean that Danish horse at Blenheim and Ramillies should be modelled in buffcoats and without cuirass ? (wow!, simply wow!)
3. Which regiments received cuirasses in 1707, those at home or all, including those serving in Flanders ?

In the article by Snorrason, previously found on Schorr's website, he writes that "At the beginning of the war in 1701 only a few cavalry regiments were furnished with the cuirass". When I checked the e-mail he also mention in this a third regiment which returned from Saxon service with heavy equipment (unfortuneatly he did not remember the name of that regiment). I do not know which regiments got the cuirasses in 1707 but in the article he states that "all cavalry regiments" had them in 1709.

[maciek]

Tacitus.
Thanks for information.

Guenter.
I know Dan Schorr's site, but you couldn't find there the answer for questions above.