Great Northern War Range

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
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Great Northern War Range

Post by barr7430 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:44 pm

Dear interested Friends,

the best place to start this thread is by laying out some of the topics requiring decisions. I have learned a huge amount in the 19 months of Warfare Miniatures. Much of that was about how not to do things.

Sensible planning maximises the options, speed of production and minimises cost.
Clearly we have to start somewhere. The main protagonists and core troop types will give people comfort that the endeavour has legs. The more obscure types can follow on later.
Clearly the Swedes are at the core of the conflict and must be a priority. The Russians are equally a priority. The most famous part of the war is probably the 1703-1709 period and so creating troops to fit that frame would be an obvious place to start.

SWEDES
My initial thoughts are to go along the lines of the approach taken with Warfare so far ie themed packs.

For the Swedish Infantry I am thinking perhaps 3 head types per each code:
Tricorne
Karpus
Barehead

Initial thoughts on codes are:

1. Firing line
2. Marching/advancing
3. Attacking/charging
4. Casualties
5. Officers/command formal poses
6. Officers/command dramatic poses
7. Pikes standing
8. Pikes Marching/advancing
9. Pikes attacking/charging
10. Grenadiers (perhaps 2 pack variants)
With 5 poses per pack this would mean a total of 165 head variants. To put that in perspective the cuirassiers had 66 head variants.

Swedish Cavalry
Initial thoughts on codes

1. Formal equipment
2. Informal equipment
3. Command formal equipment
4. Command informal equipment
5. Casualties
6. Drabants

All of the above with the same 3 styles of headgear mentioned for the infantry.
OK so this IS a complete WISH LIST and I have quickly calculated a cost of the above just to condition expectation and set us on the right course. I don't want to frighten anyone as we can pare back on this but reckon this is about
£12,500.00 to do the lot. Including mould mastering and production moulds. The Russians would be similar. Per figure production costs are not included.

RUSSIANS
For the Russian Infantry I am thinking perhaps 3 head types per each code:
Tricorne
Pokalem
Barehead

Initial thoughts on codes are:

1. Firing line
2. Marching/advancing
3. Casualties
5. Officers/command formal poses
6. Officers/command dramatic poses
7. Pikes standing
8. Pikes Marching/advancing
9. Pikes attacking/charging
10. Grenadiers (perhaps 2 pack variants)

Russian Cavalry
Initial thoughts on codes

1. Dragoons
2. Grenadiers
3. Command
4. Casualties

Artillery crews and personalities for both sides. Also personalities for nations already covered by existing Warfare models such as the Saxons.

I can work up a reasonably accurate price to do the above and also a timetable of sculpting/production and release.

Investors would be able to buy castings at cost. I would also have special sculpts made for the investor group which will never be publicly released. I think we could manage to make this 'private range' quite substantial and not limited to 3-4 pieces. I am thinking more in the region 10-12.

Depending on response to this post and the possible investor group size I will decide whether we need to go to KICKSTARTER or whether we can manage it here alone. If it was a full bells and whistles job then it is indeed a meaty investment but it is easy to start with the end in mind and modify expectations.

Well, enough food for thought here. Remember the investment structure could be worked out and made proportionate. If there were 20 investors for the Swedes you are looking at about £600 per pop for the above. £1200 if the Russians are included. If you get 60 investors it is coming down to about £400 each. There could also be 'levels' of investment allowing different contributions to access different levels of return.

I will not of course conduct financial discussions on this thread and once we can see where we are going, such discussions will switch to a private email group. If anyone has currently an idea of how much they might want to buy in for let me know via wordtwister@hotmail.co.uk.

I know the period is not mainstream but loads to think about here.. My head hurts now.. off for Tea!
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Cheriton » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:39 pm

barr7430 wrote:Dear interested Friends,

Sensible planning maximises the options, speed of production and minimises cost.

...you get 60 investors it is coming down to about £400 each. There could also be 'levels' of investment allowing different contributions to access different levels of return.
The £400 each is certainly doable, can you say whether that is likely a "lump sum" up front, or over a period of weeks/months? In the latter case a higher over all investment could certainly be considered as well.

Certainly, the question is just for my own ruminations not asking for anything "in writing" at this early stage. :wink:

Cheers,

Michael
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by EvilGinger » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:58 pm

Even I might manage to scrape up £400. Even though I am more interested in the wars in Western Europe I feel it would be good to support the growth of the warfare range as a whole.

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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Dfogleman2 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:08 pm

Barry,

I will IM you re the financials, but here are some thoughts re the figure line:

Let me start by saying that I cannot adequately express how excited I to see that this may actually come to fruition. I have literally waired for thirty years for a good, complete GNW line.

All looks good, but I for one do not think we would need five --headed figures for each pose, so I would save them for last, if ever.

While some Swedish cavalry and dragoons wore the karpus from time to time, I think the vast majority usually wore hats, so you might save on the initial investment by putting these off until later. Of course, Iknow next to nothing about production of figures and it might be that the incremental cost of adding figures with new heads is not that great.


Here is the order that i would suggest producing the figures in waves: (1), (2), etc

"1. Firing line (2) (With rare exeptions they only fired two volleys a battle, so IMHO they can wait
2. Marching/advancing (1)
3. Attacking/charging (1)
4. Casualties (1)
5. Officers/command formal poses (1)
6. Officers/command dramatic poses (1)
7. Pikes standing (2) (assume that they go with the firing line)
8. Pikes Marching/advancing (1)
9. Pikes attacking/charging (1)
10. Grenadiers (perhaps 2 pack variants)
With 5 poses per pack this would mean a total of 165 head variants. To put that in perspective the cuirassiers had 66 head variants.

Swedish Cavalry
Initial thoughts on codes

1. Formal equipment (1)
2. Informal equipment (2) (I love the idea, but personally could wait while the other stuff gets done)
3. Command formal equipment (1)
4. Command informal equipment (2) (see 2, above)
5. Casualties (2)
6. Drabants (2) (see 2, above)"


"RUSSIANS
For the Russian Infantry I am thinking perhaps 3 head types per each code:
Tricorne
Pokalem
Barehead

Initial thoughts on codes are:

1. Firing line (1)
2. Marching/advancing (1)
3. Casualties (1)
5. Officers/command formal poses (1)
6. Officers/command dramatic poses (2)
7. Pikes standing (1)
8. Pikes Marching/advancing (1)
9. Pikes attacking/charging - (there does not appear to be a corresponding musketeer pack for these.)
10. Grenadiers (perhaps 2 pack variants) (1)

Russian Cavalry
Initial thoughts on codes

1. Dragoons (1)
2. Grenadiers (1)
3. Command (1)
4. Casualties (2)"

Anyway, just my thoughts!

Dannie
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by barr7430 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:29 am

For the benefit of All,

this project will run. We have enough initial potential investors to provide start up capital to get us to around 50 sculpts. I would encourage anyone who wants to jump on the train to contact me as soon as possible for more information. Not everyone is in a position to invest the same level of funding. That is fine. We can work around varying levels of contribution within reason. For now I have decided not to go the KICKSTARTER route as I think we will get by without that. It may be that as a top up later we can explore that option.

All discussions about range focus, sculpts etc will continue here in the public forum. From here on in, all financials are taken in a private email group of potential contributors.

Cheers

B
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Russian James » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:34 pm

My thoughts would be that attacking pikemen would be difficult to transport or manoeuvre on the table.

Personally I'm not a fan of firing line and would make them second wave or later.

I think most popular, or useful, infantry would be musket at ready / loading / at ease combined pack and pike at ease.
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by EvilGinger » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:08 pm

I would also note that the same problem is experienced by people wargaming other periods where pole weapons where even more ubiquitous.

Even so passive poses don't seem to fit the Swedes rather aggressive tactics. Following on from that I would also consider adding to the Swedish codes at least infantry attacking with swords & perhaps bayonets though I am not sure as to when the Swedes adopted the bayonet. After all the Swedes won on lost by getting stuck in after a point blank volley.


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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Robartes » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:14 pm

While I appreciate the fact that figures of attacking pikemen do make things a tad complicated on the tabletop and in the storage boxes, I agree with EvilG that the Swedes just need attacking poses, including the pikemen.

Perhaps looking over the hedge to the other side of the hill might help there - Musketeer's Swedish pikemen are modelled with pike at half porte (if that's a term) and the figure itself in a running pose. I would say that that is a good compromise: the half porte gives you some leeway for the first problem, and the running pose gives the dynamic & aggressive look that the Swedes want.
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Dfogleman2 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:26 pm

I agree with EvilG, as well. Attacking Swedes are a must. Hopefully, they can cast figures with drawn sword 1n one hand a musket in the other.

On the other hand, standing or firing line Russians should come before attacking ones, IMHO.
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by barr7430 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:42 pm

Things are shaping up. Great commitment from a core group now. I had a good conversation with Clibinarium last night and we sketched out some broad principles. As I suspected he has never been in favour of 'plug in' heads and actually there is no economy in doing them. we'll go for permanent head sculpts. We've already solved some of the issues in debate. Bareheaded variants will appear in a 'mixed pose' pack which means they'll be limited to about 5 Foot.. more later
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Cheriton » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:51 pm

Barry, et al:
barr7430 wrote:For the benefit of All,

I would encourage anyone who wants to jump on the train to contact me as soon as possible for more information. All discussions about range focus, sculpts etc will continue here in the public forum. From here on in, all financials are taken in a private email group of potential contributors.

Cheers

B
The following thread at TMP pertains to the current IndieGoGo project based in Paris for 28mm 1806 Prussians. I suspect some here may have read it already.

As can be seen, I made a (very) oblique reference, IMHO, to being involved in an effort in regards to a similar "project for the 18th century in 28mm." I made this while supporting some remarks by Der Alte Fritz about the viability of these type of projects.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=298933

Someone asked about the 18th Century project and I certainly did not feel it my place to offer any specfics, not even a URL. The French fellow who is leading the 1806 project then mentioned Warfare & the GNW.

I suspect Barry would prefer a tight hold on the reins with this LoA GNW project, and will leave any publicity to his good judgement.

Cheers,

Michael
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Friedrich August I. » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:13 pm

Yikes! :shock:

Again someone noble has done the forbidden :wink: He looked at the 'TPM' site and even linked something from there :roll:

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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by Cheriton » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:48 pm

Friedrich August I. wrote:Yikes! :shock:

Again someone noble has done the forbidden :wink: He looked at the 'TPM' site and even linked something from there :roll:

Joke :D
You may have detected that I was walking on tiptoes a bit above. :wink:

I was aware Barry had had some issues with TMP...

You will note that the linking is only out-going, there will be no in-coming linking generated from this keyboard. :lol:

Cheers,

Michael :)
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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by EvilGinger » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:36 am

Many people have issues with PMT myself included & the "editor" is on my list of people who need a good kicking in the Glaswegian sense :twisted: .

That aside I am rather interested in this project as part of my getting my even more evil niece to resurrect my painting business as she needs a job she can do form home being the sufferer form a condition which prevents her from working in her usual trade & she is a better painter than me. There will be more on this else where.

She has rather fallen in love with the figures for this period after I bought my great nephew a subscription to Miniature Wargames which has apparently had an article or two about wargaming the turn of the 18th century.

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Re: Great Northern War Range

Post by barr7430 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:02 pm

I will not make any comments about TMP as I am an occasional user of the Forum.

I won't join that thread either for a couple of reasons. I fully support the 1806 project, a good idea and it appears to be well organized but I have nothing valuable to add on the subject itself. I also do not want to waste time dealing with the type of ill informed comment by the guy making the completely inappropriate remarks about ponzi. The 'mouth factor' which well intentioned ventures attract from people with too much time on their hands speaks volumes about a significant slice of hobbyists.

It looks like we won't have to search too widely for supporters of the project as Warfare will invest heavily in it too. Currently those expressing interest will get us over the line for between 60-70 different sculpts.
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