Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
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fullapa
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Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by fullapa » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:17 pm

Hello, I'd like some help from you. I'm looking for Great Northern War literature available since after 2010- in all languages. Mostly in Russian/Ukrainian.

I'm searching for information about the battle of Lesnaya 1708, and I've seen contradicting numbers of troops in comparison to the traditional accepted numbers for the two armies. For one, it says there were 9-11,000 irregulars present and Lesnaya, and also 9,600 men in Werden's division and not 6,100 as previous accepted. Problem is I don't know where I've seen this...I'd like to know the source because I don't find the information that reliable.

I suspect it's from Russian literature, but could also be Ukrainian, English or Swedish. Have anyone else encountered such numbers? Any Russian know of this?

Best wishes, fullapa
fullapa
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by fullapa » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:56 pm

Okey...

So Alexander Gordon, a Scottish general in Russian service, estimated the Russian fighting force at Lesnaya to be 28,000 men strong in the battle in his book about Peter I. That is, 20,000 men strong initial force with Peter and another 8,000 men with Bauer arriving only later in the battle.

Does this indirectly say that it was 9,000–11,000 irregulars present fighting for the Russians? I don't know the original source of the numbers, this is all I got unfortunately. However, if we are to accept that the Russian regular force was 12,000–13,000 men strong initially attacking the Swedes, and another 5,000 joined up later under Bauer (about 900 of these were positioned at Propoisk to block the Swedish army) it indirectly says that it was 7,000–8,000 irregulars present at the beginning alongside the 12,000–13,000 regulars, plus another 3,000 arriving with Bauer and his 5,000 dragoons.

I'm seeking the help from Russians who shares the same interest in the Great Northern War as I do. I know there's people on this site with great knowledge. My question is basically, what original source did Gordon base his numbers on?

Do you think this is a similar case like that of Poltava, where the irregular numbers fighting in the battle were huge (some historians estimate the irregulars present at Poltava to an incredible number of 30,000 men!)

https://books.google.fr/books?id=XfIIAA ... &q&f=false

I can't translate the text in this book, anyone mind translating the information about the battle of Lesnaya?

I refuse to believe this site doesn't have people with great knowledge about older sources of the time.

From Russian Wikipedia:

"При этом необходимо понимать, что это официальное изречение российского государя, и как было отмечено выше, ни на каком этапе сражения царские войска не насчитывали численно меньше, чем войска шведского короля. На первом этапе боя 12622 чел. регулярных сил "Корволанта" и нескольким тысячам иррегулярной калмыцко-казацкой конницы противостояло 7-8 тыс. шведов. На втором этапе боя хотя к шведам вернулась часть войск из посланных к Пропойску (3 тыс.чел.), что увеличило силы Левенгаупа примерно до 9-10 тысяч с учётом потерь, но к силам Петра I постоянно присоединялись части корпуса Боура (всего он насчитывал незадолго до битвы у Лесной 14840 чел.) и основные силы иррегулярной кавалерии казаков и калмыков (до 10 тыс. чел.)"
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by barr7430 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:03 am

Fullapa, you are very welcome on the site and the forum. I personally don't have the answer to a very typical question that faces us in our interest in the past.. Contradictory or conflicting source material. Maybe some of our members have the answer. Let's wait and see

Barry
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by turrabear » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:46 pm

Try birth of the Russian empire by nick Dorsell.in my opinion this is the best book in English on the subject.
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sat May 20, 2017 3:57 am

I'm a year late on this, but try "Vägen till Poltava - Slaget vid Lesnaja" by Pavel Knovaltjuk and Einar Lyth. This is the best modern book on the subject.

They show 5149 infantry (excluding officers) and 7801 dragoons in the Corps Volante and 4976 dragoons with Bauer, again excluding officers. They note that an "unknown number of Cossack and Kalmuck units" also took part.
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by turrabear » Sat May 20, 2017 3:07 pm

Dfogleman2 wrote:I'm a year late on this, but try "Vägen till Poltava - Slaget vid Lesnaja" by Pavel Knovaltjuk and Einar Lyth. This is the best modern book on the subject.

They show 5149 infantry (excluding officers) and 7801 dragoons in the Corps Volante and 4976 dragoons with Bauer, again excluding officers. They note that an "unknown number of Cossack and Kalmuck units" also took part.
Any idea where you can get a copy of this.
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sat May 20, 2017 7:59 pm

There are two copies available on Abebooks right now at reasonable prices.
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by turrabear » Sat May 20, 2017 10:33 pm

Dfogleman2 wrote:There are two copies available on Abebooks right now at reasonable prices.
Sorry can,t find the book on the abebooks site.
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Re: Great Northern War literature, Lesnaya 1708

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sun May 21, 2017 12:41 am

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