Talon & Claw uniform query

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
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Old John
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Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Old John » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:19 am

having been inspired by the wonderful photos of painted figures in the book, i'm asking for more info on the uniform illustration on page 124 for troops in Venetian service shown there, Massa Dragoons & Maltese infantry, have done a web search but couldn't find anything that helped
any guidance/help will be much appreciated, looking for any uniform plates, flag illustrations, sources etc

many thanks in advance
cheers Old John
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Friedrich August I.
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:07 am

Uniform Plates...Nope...I few descriptions I can share with you..as I did with Barry, who asked me something similar.

Here is a Copy of the Information's I gave him for hired Saxon Troops in Morea:

I copy in here the mails - text only

I am doing a scenario for the new book_
Battle of Kalamata 14th September 1685.
Venetians v Ottmans in Greece.

There were 3,500 Saxons in the Venetian Army together with Hessians? Hanoverians and other German mercenaries. Would you be able to find out which Saxon regiments found for the Republic under Morosini and the Swede Konigsmarck during the 1st Morean War?


To your request:
1685 the Saxon Elector granted the sending of 3000 men to the Venetian Republic. The Troops were bodies from each of the Infantry Regiments of the Saxon Army under the Command of Colonel Rudolph v. Schönfeld as Brigadier. Those 3000 men formed 3 Regiments of 1000 men in 10 Companies each. One Regiment wore Red Uniforms (Probably a large Part of the Leib-Regiment) while the other two had gray Uniforms(attached Picture). At their arrival in Morea the were taken over by the former Saxon Colonel Baron(Freiherr) v. Degenfeld, now in the Rank of F.M.Lts (Field Marshall Lieutenant).
Until the (forced) return of the Corps in 1687, they lost from the fighting and contagious diseases 2.239 men.

Only a few mentioning of the Places where they fought but no further details. Sorry.
Hope that helps.


I know I am pushing it now Gunter 🙂 but.. do you have any idea what flag(s) the Saxons might have carried if they were in composite regiments as you have described? I am assuming no Saxon Horse/Dragoons went to the Peloponesse?

Hi Barry,
No Horse. Only Infantry, It seems, because Sea Transport Issues that the Venetians only requested Infantry.
About flags...If I read this early stage of the Saxon Army correctly there have been only 6 Foot Regiments. One of them was the Leib Regiment. So, as these mentioned Colonel Schönfeld was actually the Commanding Officer of the Leib-Regiment you might use et least one of their Flags. For the others I would use only the Colored Flags/ Company Flags. Hm, now the difficult part...the flags...lets see...
According to Hottenroth it seems that 30 Flags have been with those Troops in Greece. 1 for each Company, as after the Soldiers returned to Saxony, the delivered the 26 remaining Flags to the Dresdner Zeughaus.



Cipher of Johann Georg III - similar to that of JG IV - on the other side the unchanged design as below right side.
Hottenroth mentions only that the Flags looked as if from the TYW in coloring, Ciphers and pictures -


Sources:
Schuster& Francke: Die Geschichter der Saechsischen Armee
Hottenroth: Saechsische Fahnen und Standarten

Hope that helps.

If you like to get the same pictures I gave Barry send a short e-mail to:

augustus.ii.der.starke@gmail.com

Cheers,
Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Old John » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 am

Hi Gunther
many thanks for info, much appreciated, will email you shortly, for building my Venetian forces i've been using Bruno Mugani's works for them
as to Saxons here's what i've used as sources
Wolfgang Friechrich Saxon Troops 1683 -1763
Reinhold Muller Die Armee Augusts des Starken (yes a later period but helpful)
Alexander Querengasser Saxon mars and His Force from Helion no 48 Century of the Soldier series
" " Saxon army in GNW from Heere & Waffen no 21

plus a few other sources that i picked up traveling around Germany in past as well visiting Vienna Arsenal Museum

cheers Old John
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Old John » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:46 am

should have mentioned

Dan Schorrs Notes on Saxon Army and his Saxon Polish Army in GNW Editions Brokaw in Wargaming in Age of Marlborough series

cheers Old john
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Glorfindel » Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:53 pm

This is also an excellent site (just use the links on the left hand side):

http://rusmilhist.blogspot.com/]
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by danschorr » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:25 am

When the Saxon regiments entered Venetian service, they were issued new flags. These were red with a golden Lion of St. Mark facing away from the staff on a green field. In its left paw a silver bladed sword with gold hilt pointed upward, and under its right paw the arms of the Elector of Saxony in a gold shield with an electoral cap above.
Hope this is helpful.
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Old John » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:02 pm

yes very helpful , many thanks, again has anyone info on Maltese troops in Venetian Service

cheers Old John
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:03 pm

Oh, wow, Dan. Great Info. I wonder why Hottenroth stated the return of 26 Flags After the Campaign into the Dresden Zeughaus..Did he talk about those new ones? Or have these been the Originals...
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by danschorr » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:21 pm

He was referring to the ones issued by Venice. It is unfortunate that none survived.
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by barr7430 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:15 pm

Wonderful info Dan, you've done it again:)

thanks and best regards

Barry
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Re: Talon & Claw uniform query

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:33 pm

danschorr wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:21 pm
He was referring to the ones issued by Venice. It is unfortunate that none survived.
Yeah, Fredrick the Great...THANK YOU for Burning them :evil:
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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