Disappointing books II.. is it just me?

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Disappointing books II.. is it just me?

Post by barr7430 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:59 pm

Continuing with my rant about poor quality books.. does anyone have/has anyone read the OSPREY CAMPAIGN SERIES WATERLOO 1815?

I have just re read it and was reminded how one sided and Franco-phobic it really is.
It is laden with made up prose a la Wally Hearle... quotes and fantasy dialogue in a sort of Napoleonic Commando book fashion. There are (perhaps many) inaccuracies in the text also. It is sort of frosted glass,playing fields of Eton and jolly hockey sticks image of the fairplay English and their rough, brave but uneducated junior partners from the Celtic nations versus the cruel, bayonet wielding, baby killing menacious and probably smelly, Froggie thugs who brutally 'hacked down artillery gun crews' etc
It reminded me very much of an article which I was made to read in 1st Year English class which was a 'lift' from a Marty Feldman Show script(my teachers were quite enlightened!).. don't know if anyone every read this it was the one about England playing Uraguay in a football match and by the end of it the commentator (Feldman) had transformed the South Americans from skilful players to 'The loathesome half men from Uruguay'!.. England were by that time, losing the match!

Did any one else ever read this?

Osprey should really introduce rather more stringent quality checks on their publications (many of which are extremely lightweight and full of second hand history). This is not an objective piece of work!!
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Post by kiwipeterh » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:29 am

While not conversant with the specific Osprey you could always balance the ledger a little by reading one of the Histoire & Collections books by F.G. Hourtoulle. I have four from the series mainly for the colour plates (though I know that some of them are a little suspect!). Excellent coffee table type scanning but the pro French reading is truly vomit inducing! :oops:

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Post by barr7430 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:46 am

Thanks for the sense of balance Peter..

I went back after my rant last night and looked for some specific examples..
Kellerman's cavalry "Ruthlessly hacked down the crew of an artillery battery" P39

Whilst on the sunny side of the street the Greys
"Set about sabring as many gunners as they could find" P62

I am neither Franco phile nor phobe.. just don't like that kind of writing coupled with the insertion of 'Boy's Own' rhetoric into the mouths of the participants! :roll:
Anyway, you are going to come along with some Prussian Propaganda aren't you :!:
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Post by Liam A of E » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:09 am

Yes, I thought the "Commando" reference was quite apt. I dont really look beyond Adkin now, but the Osprey book does seem to have those annoying points which should really be cleared up by now - e.g. the start of D'Erlons attack and the timing of the arrival of the Prussians. Time for a revised or completely new edition. I havent looked to see when the edition was first published.

But here is a valid observation - how do you want to read about your battles? I remember buying The Road to Stalingrad, by that chap at Edinburgh who is the big brain on the subject. Totally inacessible. It read like an orbat from start to finish. Well, from start to half way through, cos thats as far as I got. I remember thinking - when is the narrative going to start? when I realised that all I was going to get was effectively a list of troop movements. The Osprey book on - I think Lutzen, by Hofschroer, equally put me to sleep, being a variant on Fat Freddys "and they went, and they went, and they went....."

I do like stirring accounts, especially if they are contemporary - Soldier of the 71st - and do like my history to "come alive", and if I am being honest I do like to read about the British doing well. But i dont like any of this at the cost of the loss of perspective, or the creation of partisan polemic, or the sacrifice of accuracy. And to portray one side as evil, or barbaric, or even weak and useless is not on. Whereas I dont think we need to apologise for winning Waterloo ( I should think not ), and dont think we should completely re-write history ( Hofshroer and his teutonic mania ), I do think we need to have the humility to recognise there was extreme bravery on both sides, especially from our allies ( and I mean especially the Dutch-Belgians and Hanoverians) without whom there would have been no Waterloo as the French would have won Quatre Bras. I do think the Ospery book peddles the old Anglocentric view.

kiwipeterh, spot on about Hourtoulle. I love the plates and other piccies (although the battle maps drive me crazy) and I tend to buy them on the spot. The first one I got was Austerlitz, and it was triumphalist, but I thought, fair enough, it is Austerlitz after all. Then I got 1814, and having ploughed through the cumbersome translation it left me felling a bit giddy. If I remember, the conluding summary was to the effect that although he had been comrehensively beaten this wouldnt have happened if he had even had a wee bit more cavalry ( some truth there ), he had been brilliant in his tactics (fair enough at times ), and although Paris taken and Napoleon abdicated, it was really actually a victory for him, and glory to the French People, Vive La France! ( eh?). It ticked me off at the time but now it just makes me chuckle. Its much much worse than Osprey Waterloo, but not as bad as (Twas the Prussians wot won it) Hofschroer. Is there a Waterloo one? I havent seen it. But then its probably not called Waterloo....
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Post by Ronan the Librarian » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:14 am

I have to say, even when taken out of context and juxtaposed in that way, they don't strike me as the most blindingly obvious examples of national bias I've ever read. Both suggest to me that it was a crappy time to be in the artillery. Ruthless efficiency can often be a back-handed compliment.

Incidentally, is this the edition that manged to omit the Imperial Guard from the French orbat?
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Post by barr7430 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:29 am

No, fair is fair Ronan.. the Garde do appear on the opposite page!

Juxtapose... no... comparison, yes

out of context.. matter of opinion!
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Post by Liam A of E » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:38 pm

Yup, remember those quotes. I dont think they are the less from being removed from the text, but even if we take them out of context, I have to say they do seem pretty blatant.

The description applied to Kellermans cav - the words "ruthless" and "hack", call to mind an act of barbarism, cold blooded butchery. It doesnt actually say they were ruthlessly efficent - I'm sure if that was the case, they would have given the gunners the point, not a hack!

"sabring as many gunners as they could find" not only suggests pure professionalism bordering on a sporting event - it also suggests the French gunners were hiding! An enormously economic use of English, if you like.
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Post by colbert » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:06 pm

Barry,
I totaly agree about Geoffrey Wootten`s work,it is as Franco-phobic as any book by Mr Ian Fletcher.(the guy who wrote Sharpe? )
As a European , i prefer the works of F.G Hourtoulle & Tranie/Carmigniani
"vomit inducing". Fordi du - aksepterer det engelske vinklingen. :wink:
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Post by Blucher » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:33 pm

Barry

I can't see the problem with Osprey's description of the French. Personally I don't think they go far enough!!!!!!!

On another point, lets get it right about the Prussians.....................!!!

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Post by obriendavid » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:25 pm

Blucher wrote:Barry
On another point, lets get it right about the Prussians.....................!!!
Quite right Adrian, I have always thought the Prussians never got the credit they deserved for their part in the Napoleonic wars.

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Post by barr7430 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:56 pm

An interesting thread indeed..

Dave & Adrian... agree that the Prusskies have never received their due.. however.. Hoffschroer? has gone a little too far with the Teutonic propaganda.
Colbert... I thought it was just me!! Glad you and Liam at least appreciate my point of view on Wootten.. The reference I included was ONE of MANY and probably one of the MILDER!.. that book is not the finest piece of literature I have ever bought.

Would love to know what you wrote in Norwegian? Colbert!... please tell us (I liked vomit inducing though) :lol:
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Disappointing books II.. is it just me?

Post by Churchill » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:34 pm

Hi Barry,

I own the book in question and a good number of other Osprey titles and I agree some passages and quotes do put a grin on my face.
I like Liam use my "Waterloo Companion" by Mark Adkin as my bible for the battle and "Waterloo (The Battle of Three Armies)" is another good read in that it's written by a English, French and German writer's and each give separate accounts of the battle.
As to who actually won the battle well there's a lot of if's and but's on the subject, but one only need's to read about what happened to Siborne and his 40 square metre model which is housed in the National Army Musuem in London.
This model of the battlefield was made by Captain William Siborne (1797-1849) and shows the crisis point of a battle the Duke of Wellington (1769-1852) called ‘the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life’. It is based on the accounts of around 700 British officers who took part in the battle. When finished, the model made it look, quite rightly, as if the Prussians had helped win the day.
The furious Wellington, who claimed sole responsibility for the triumph, insisted Siborne depict the position of the armies at the start of battle instead. Siborne was leant on by the powers that be and he reluctantly removed thousands of hand-painted Prussian soldiers. Wellington saved face and Siborne died a broken man. By standing up for historical accuracy he stood accused of subverting a central element of national mythology: the conviction that Britain alone - and the genius of the Iron Duke in particular – had saved Europe from the tyranny of Napoleon.
Without the arrival of the Prussian's on the field of Waterloo would history have been changed.

Regards........Ray.
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Post by barr7430 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:11 pm

Strangely enough I was in the Royal Armouries in Leeds today and was actually of looking at a section Siborne's model which is there!! :shock: It may actually be part of his second model. It os the '2.00pm situation' between Hougoumont and Ohain. Very impressive.. what a coincidence 8)

Incidentally Colbert... Cornwell wrote Sharpe I think... never read the books myself.

Who is the other guy you mentioned?.. Fletcher?
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Post by colbert » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:25 pm

Barry,
I Know who wrote Sharpe,i was using sarcasim :roll: Ian Fletcher"A Desperate Business""Wellingtons Regiments" Osprey Vittoria ect,very pro english(no garlic in his beef pie)
The Norsk was aimed at the comments on the books by Hourtoulle,"because you accept the english version" It would not be possible for a French version of events,(or German at that matter)to out do the english. :wink:
Hilsen,
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Post by Liam A of E » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:31 pm

Now Gentlemen, lets have no knocking of Sharpie, if you please. Whereas I wouldnt recommend them to a Frenchman, there are certainly more English liars, cowards and idiots portrayed than French ones, and he does end up marrying a French woman and living in a Farm in Normandy. On the whole, apart from Ducos, the French are treated quite sympathetically......when they are not being killed, of course.

Francophobic? Mais non. Good reads? Mais Oui.

Barry - I would recommend them. Realistic in terms of dirt under the fingernails, and general historical correctness, and jolly good fun, swashes buckled, bodices ripped, cads confounded and Napoleon frustrated - Huzzah!
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