Middle and Young Guard - Help pls

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barr7430
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Middle and Young Guard - Help pls

Post by barr7430 » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:32 pm

Hoping someone can help me please

Question 1. Fusilier Chassuers.

a. Did they carry an Eagle or another flag during the period 1809- 1814. If so, what did the second battalion carry?
b. Did they have four companies?

Question 2. Flanker Chasseurs & Flanker Grenadiers
a. How many battalions in each unit?
b. How many companiesper battalion?
c. What standards(if any) were carried 1811-1814?

Many thanks in anticipation.

regards

Barry
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Middle & Young Guard

Post by pabblo41 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:31 pm

Hi Barry

What period are you specifically interested in ay they originally have 4 companies (between 120-160 men), and then changed circa 1810/12 to 6 companies of 120 men (Full strength, how often that was reached do not know).

Will need to check my books etc, to confirm this along with the flags etc.
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Post by PaulMc » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:28 pm

Hi Barry,

Here's some info on the Fusilier Chasseurs:-

From Osprey Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (1) Eagle carried by first battalion, I'm not sure what the second battalion would carry.
1809-1811 Flag is of 1804 pattern.
1811-13 Flag is a modified version of 1804 pattern.
1813-14 Guards issued with 1812 infantry pattern 1 per regt.

No. of companies 1806-1811: 4
No. of companies 1811-13: 5 (the 5th being titled Fusiliers Sergents & eventually concentrated into a single battalion)
No of companies 1813-14: 6

As for flanqueurs I can only find info about the raising of a regiment in 1811 recruited from sons and nephews of the Imperial or public forests.
Also the Flanqueurs Chasseurs officers drawn from senior guards regiments usually retained their blue uniforms.

Well not a great help, but I hope it's a start. I also have the Ospreys on Napoleonic flags and the Imperial Guard if they're any use to you.

Paul
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Post by pabblo41 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:38 pm

Hi Barry
Got my books in front of me now

Flags - all units 1st battalion carried an eagle, 2nd battalion carried a fanion which was unofficial and I do not have an example for the units you are interested in, probably not known, and you could make your own up. There are examples on the Warflag user group site, and in the Ospray book Napelon's Guard Infantry (2). They were either red or white, with either an eagle in the middle or a wreath surrounding a capital N topped by an eagle, in alternate courners would be a grenade or horn. All devices were gold.

All Middle and Young Guard Units were supposed to have 2 battalions, as per Fusilier Chasseur below

Fusilier Chasseurs had 4 companies of 120 men, until 5 Jan 1811 when a fifth was added, and on 26 December 1813 a sixth.

Flanqueurs-chasseurs - created 4 Sept 1811, had 4 companies of 120/125 men per battalion raised to 6 coimpanies in May 1813.

Flanqueur-grenadiers - created 23 May 1813, had 6 companies of 120 men per battalion.

Interesting note is that Funcken has the Flanqueur Chasseur and Grenadiers being raised the other way round, dates are the same though.

Hope this helps.
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Post by barr7430 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:18 pm

Thanks this is REALLY useful to me. :D both of you!

I am interested in your views on whether these units would actually have carried their Eagles into battle or left the at the depot.

Another Nap enthusiast told me:

a. The Middle & Young Guard chasseur units had no eagles
b. Napoleon had forbade ALL light unit Ligne or Garde to carry Eagles into battle as there were several cases of them losing them whilst skirmishing.

I thought this bit unusual as it highly unlikely that a colour party would go forward with a unit standard and skirmish.

I thought all skirmishing unit had to hold back between one and three companies in close order as a rallying point anyway. This would be the obvious place for an Eagle or standard to lodge.

I now have to decidewhther I want my Flanquer Chasseurs to have an extra two companies painted if I want to do the 1813 campaign :roll:

thanks again chaps!
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Post by pabblo41 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:57 pm

Hi Barry

This is my view only from what I have read, but when dealing with Napoleonic eagles and flags etc, that we must consider the eagle itself seperate from the flag. The eagle was only carried by the first battalion, but other battalions also carried Fannons or flags either 1804 or 1812 or 1815 design on ordinary flag poles.

The flags and fannons were probably carried all the time, and was up to the indivudal unit commander wheather they obayed the official edit or not (can compare this to Louis XIV wanting all French cavalry officiers to wear the cuirass, and it being largely ignored by them).

As for the Eagle itself, in my view this largely stayed behind, and certainly post 1812, but again was up to the whim of the unit commander. If you consider the disasters that happened to the French from 1812 onwards, capturing an Eagle should have been fairly common, but do not hear of many cases.

For light infantry battalions skirmishing, I agree with you. The standard practice was for half the unit to skirmish with the other half in reserve in close order, and this is where the colour party should be. But there are always exceptions! :wink:

As for painting the extra companies for the Flanquer Chasseurs, I would since most of the campaign's they fought in would have been from 1813 onwards. You could also look at the units average strength, most middle and young guard battalions were only 500 strong, wheather they had 4 or 6 companies.

Hope this helps!
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Post by janbruinen » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:05 pm

Hi Barry,
according to "Foot regiments of the Imperial Guard"by Michael Head (almark Books), no regiments of the middle or young guards were issued an eagle or colour.
They only had battalion pennons but little is known about size colour etc.
In a letter to Bessieres (march 10, 1812) Napoleon ordered that every guard battalion was to have a fanion; white for Tirailleurs and red for Voltigeurs.
The fanion of the 1st voltigeurs is known: square (26" x 26,5") in red with white edging, capital N, above it a white eagle with gold crown. In two corners white grenades, in the other corners white hunting horns.
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More on Flanqueurs

Post by PaulMc » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:43 pm

Hi Barry,

I found the following info:-

September 4th, created a regiment of flanqueurs of the Guard.

“This regiment, said the decree, will be composed of sons of general guards and forester guards. It will be organized and paid like are the fifth and sixth regiments of tirailleurs and voltigeurs of the Young Guard, and managed by the council of the regiment of the foot chasseurs of the Old Guard.”

It was from the website below

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... laire.html
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Post by barr7430 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:21 pm

Hi Paul thanks a lot I will visit this site!!
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Re: Middle and Young Guard - Help pls

Post by turrabear » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:59 am

no regiments of the middle or young guard were issued with an eagle.
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Re: Middle and Young Guard - Help pls

Post by Sheepman » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:14 pm

These Grenadier Fusilier figures should be accurately painted, they say pictures speak a thousand words so:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Hope this may help.
Dave
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Re:

Post by Rob Herrick » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:01 am

barr7430 wrote:Hi Paul thanks a lot I will visit this site!!
You should! The discussion forum is VERY useful for getting just this kind of question answered.
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