Blenheim OOB

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
Gerryjd
Captain
Captain
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:40 pm
Location: Irvine, Ayrshire

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Gerryjd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:59 pm

Cheers for that Ray. Will add them to my list of reading

Gerry
You may call it sarcasm........I, on the other hand, prefer to refer to it as a humorous observation!!! :-)
wdrenth
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:57 am
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by wdrenth » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:08 am

hi Gerry,

As Ray replied, regiments of the British armed forces were not formally numbered before 1751. I just might add some further information. Precedence of regiments, the (more abstract) mechanism underlying numbering, is from a much earlier date.

Precedence is probably as old as the ego of males, both outside and inside the armed forces. So, in 1666 Charles II settled precedence of the regiments of the modern British army for the first time, to avoid conflict and animosity between colonels. (At that time more often than not courtiers seeking for prestige, power and patronage instead of military professionals.) Precedence was also important for lining up regiments in battle order and during marches, most likely because precedence was also measure for a regiment's experience and reliability in battle. Hence the positioning of senior regiments on the flanks of the line of battle.

In 1694, under William III the concept of precedence was formalized by various rules. This is important to understand, since these rules were used well into the 20th century. Basically, the English Establishment was considered more important than the Irish and Scots, and precedence was determined from the moment a regiment was placed on the English Establishment. So, a regiment raised in England in, for example, 1694, took precedence over a Scots regiment raised in 1690 placed on the English Establishment after 1694.

Thus, Hay's Dragoons, the future 2nd Dragoons, were ranked as 4th. Though they originate from 1681, or even 1678, the regiment did not enter the English Establishment before 1688. By that time there were already three regiments of dragoons in England.

It is of interest to note that Queen Anne changed the rules a bit in 1712, perhaps influenced by Jacobite/Tory sympathizers, and precedence was again determined by the board of general officers. From that time the Earl of Stair's Dragoons (Earl of Stair succeeded Lord Hay in 1706) became ranked as 2nd. Under George I part of this was made undone, but colonels of senior regiments still had big egos, and were often people with considerable influence. Though not fully clear, this probably explains why the Earl of Stair's Dragoons remained ranked as 2nd.

cheers,
Wienand
Gerryjd
Captain
Captain
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:40 pm
Location: Irvine, Ayrshire

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Gerryjd » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:08 am

Many Thanks for that. :)

That somewhat unmuddies the waters a bit more for me.

Was curious as to why they were being referred to as the Scots Greys back in that period when, officially, that title didnt appear until much, much later, but found something else about it online.
You may call it sarcasm........I, on the other hand, prefer to refer to it as a humorous observation!!! :-)
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Churchill » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:37 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ben Waterhouse
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:59 am
Location: Vectis, Blighty

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Ben Waterhouse » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:07 pm

wdrenth wrote:...
Precedence is probably as old as the ego of males, both outside and inside the armed forces. ..
Wienand
Which is why of course my Gallant Regiment is the Oldest Fighting unit in the British land forces (notwithstanding some Taff Sapper slight of hand in precedence to do with a spurious mention of the militia)...

:D

Image
Arma Pacis Fulcra

God, War, Drink.
wdrenth
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:57 am
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by wdrenth » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:45 pm

hi Ray,

Thank you and I am happy my comments are found useful :)

As to your questions, when settling precedence there was distinction between the Guards and non-Guards. The First Regiment of Guards always came first, followed by the Coldstream Regiment. For example, the Welsh Guards were formed only in 1915, but took precedence as 5th regiment of guards, thus before any of the 'normal' regiments of foot.
Thus, before, during and after the WSS the Guards outranked any of the regiments of foot at all times!

Orkney's Regiment of Foot was indeed formed in 1633, but as a mercenary regiment for service of Louis XIII. According to my research it does not originate from any Scots unit in Swedish service, though absorbed remnants of these regiments in 1634 (I think) when campaigning in the eastern parts of modern day France. It came on the English Establishment for a short period in 1661, and took precedence from that time. The regiment remained in French service until 1678. The regiment comprised 21 companies in 1678, and was split into two battalions in early 1686.

The regiments of foot guards had of course many companies allowing the formation of several battalions. This happened of course, but these battalions were not permanent. They can be seen best, I think, as 'purpose only' battalions formed by grouping several companies. (The battalion as we know it, as an administrative entity, is from a later date) The battalion of guards serving in Flanders from 1701 is such an example, and the various battalions of guards in Spain were formed in a similar way (together with the Coldstream Guards). In the early years of the NYW the First Regiment of Guards was split in even four battalions.

I have not examined in depth the etymology of the word battalion, but my impression is that it has its origin as a means to measure army sizes in the field of battle with a battalion anywhere between 500 and 800 men composed of a varying number of companies (a captaincy, the building block of regiments of varying size, Prussian companies were large, Dutch and English companies were small). The word battle is obviously in the word battalion. Squadron is in that sense a similar way of counting cavalry; for cavalry the troop (the captaincy) was the building block with squadron being the tactical/battle field unit of measurement.

Hope this all makes sense :D

cheers,
Wienand
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Churchill » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:58 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Friedrich August I.
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2182
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Friedrich August I. » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:30 pm

Ray,

Please forgive me if I am to lazy to look for myself* but can you tell me how many figures your Army will have when finished?

Best Wishes,
Günter

*I am at work :?
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Churchill » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:10 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Friedrich August I.
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2182
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Friedrich August I. » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:47 am

Ray,

8) That's a large 'army' you are assembling. I am very impressed.
So are they for your own pleasure or do you intend to take this figures to games as well?
I think you know in which direction these questions are going :wink:

Thank you for taking time to answer.

Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Churchill » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:50 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Churchill » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:38 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Friedrich August I.
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2182
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Friedrich August I. » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:01 pm

Ray,

This Leaders are realy intended to lead your Army to Victory!
They are real Beauties :)

Are there any 'Group' Shots of the Army?

Best Wishes,
Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by Churchill » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MNFS
Command Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Blenheim OOB

Post by MNFS » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:29 am

Hi Ray,

The army looks amazing!

Regarding Ross' Dragoons, I noticed your flag is different to the one on the WarFlag website, which has the st Patrick's cross. Were they both used at different times, or is one more accurate?

I ask as I'm looking to use Ross' Dragoons for my Williamite Anglo-Dutch army.

Best,

Mark
Post Reply