PIKES CARRIED BY ALLIES till 1706!!!

[barr7430]

Very interesting conversation yesterday with Ian Stainsford of the P&S. He claims to have seen official archive evidence that 'British' regiments carried pikes at Blenheim and probably at Ramillies. The ratio stated is actually 1:2 !

The matter appears not to be tactical either but purely economic. The colonels could equip a man with a pike much more cheaply that a musket therefore pikes were carries. Only on the transfer of some regiments to Spain in 06-07 were the pikes left in England or Flanders to be picked up by the next drafts arriving from home.
Apparently the Dutch also continued to carry them.

In the proportions stated this is actually a rather 'major' find. I have not heard this data before and would recommned anyone who can get their hands on more inof do so.
Jeff Huddleson or Greg/Jon Mccluskey if you chaps are still posting on the Linear warfare society thred you may wish to disemminate this info

[Bluebear]

Okay, Barry. I've sent it to the Early Linear Warfare Group.


-- Jeff

[pabblo41]

Hi

If anybody is interested in following this us they should speak to Peter Berry of Baccus as we had a discussion about this about a year ago. He said that a couple of University history professors he knew had unearthed records showing that the English/British army were reissueing pikes up until 1706 after they had been withdrawn from service after the end of the war of the LOA in 1697. My intial thought was of a supply shortage of suitable muskets(nor economic) when the army was expanded at the start of the WSS, and also that units sent to Spain took priority in being supplied with muskets as it was decided that pikes were not suitable for that theatre any more. There is also evidence to suggest that they were converting matchlocks as well to meet shortages which were not fully rectified until 1706/7.

The debate continues....!!?

[barr7430]

Pabblo41,

don't quite get the point
Are you saying Ian Stainsford is right or wrong?
Did Pete Berry agree or disagree?

cheers

[pabblo41]

This was a conversation that happened over a year ago and it looks like from what you are saying that Iain Stanford is agreeing with what Peter Berry's colleagues have unearthed, that the British did still have pikes up until 1706.

We did not discuss the Dutch having pikes or the ratio of pike to musket. What is confusing is why did the British re issue pikes in 1701 after withdrawing them and that there is no concrete evidence to say that the pikes were actually used or not.

This is a grey area, as although it is very probable that pikes were issued it looks like from other evidence that the British troops issued with the pike, got rid of them as soon a possible and armed themselves with captured muskets, and that Marlbrough and other commanders had them left with the baggage train if sufficient muskets were available. So it looks like although pikes were issued they may not have been used in battle.

As I say the debate continues

[barr7430]

Thanks for that clarification. I got the distinct impression from Iain that he was going with the belief that they were used in action. Perhaps he was just getting excited or perhaps trying to promote some kind of sensational theory but he did specifically at one point of our conversation say

"so that means that it is highly likely that British regiments carried pikes at Blenheim and possibly even at Ramillies too"

Jon Wray was part of that conversation too.

As you say.. the debate continues

[pabblo41]

I BET Iain was quite excited by the prospect.

This is the continuation of a debate that has been going on for a number of years. I do not know if you are a member of the Pike & Shot Society Yahoo user group or the Warflag Blenheim Yahoo user group (I know Iain is for both) but it has been extensively discussed on both sites with various people presenting evidence (Coins, paintings, drawings and even a scene on the Blenheim tapestry all showing pike armed troops at Blenheim, as far as i am aware there is no such evidence for Ramillies).

I do not know if Iain has met up with these people, but it looks like he may have done and found more evidence as well.

It is my beleif that pikes were issued in 1701, but it begs the question what training did men get in using them as I would assume that from 1697 British infantry were only trained and drilled to use the musket and socket bayonet (probably received training in the use of the pike as they went along sort of on the job training). I can see units being sent to Flanders in 1701 with pikes and by 1704 they would most probably have got themselves fully armed with muskets (by whatever means possible), and that units sent in the following years up to 1704-5-6 will be in various states of rearming.

So I could see at Blenheim that units that had been in Flanders since 1701 will be fully musket armed and that units that had just arrived in 1704 would still have their pikes in whatever ratio they were in.

Post Blenheim there must have been plenty of muskets available and they must have stored them up and issued them accordingly. So by Ramillies unless a unit was fresh off the boat, no unit would have carried thier pikes into battle(left them with the baggage). This must have also applied to the Dutch.

[18th Century Guy]

I guess one interesting question would be IF the Allies (Confederates) did carry & use pikes in battle up to Ramillies in 1706 were the French and their allies also doing the same with pikes?

[pabblo41]

Dear 18th Century Guy

As far as I am aware there is no evidence for the French or their allies carrying pikes in combat during the WSS. From what I can remember they had completely withdrawn them by 1704.

On a side note many of the German states had stopped using them by the end of the War of LOA in 1697, many of them earlier than this. The main exception being the Palintaine (Plafz) and they had withdrawn them by 1703/4 along with the matchlocks still in issue, and before they got involved in any serious combat.

[hwiccee]

Just a few notes.

It was my understanding that the British were supposed to have, in the traditional view, stopped using pikes at the beginning of the WSS not at the end of the war of LOA. So if Stanford is correct you don't have this strange stopping and starting that has been suggested - the British use them straight through to 1706-07.

Also Stanford does think that the pikes were in use at Ramilles.

The French certainly used their pikes in action until the end of 1703 but not afterwards. This was of course not against the British but the Imperialists & other allies.

On their actual use by British/Dutch units we have some circumstancial evidence that they were - the coins, paintings, etc, already mentioned. There is no evidence that they were left in the baggage or otherwise not used.

The first British training manual which does not include the pike is the 1708 one. Use of pike is all the manuals prior to this.

Finally I would point out that much of the comment about pikes takes the view that they are obsolete and basically useless. This is debatable at this time and the arguments for it are largely based on hindsight. In my view it would be a lot better to look at why pikes were kept and what they were used for, both in the war of LOA & the WSS/GNW.

[conflans]

Regarding pike use by the French and their allies, Merode mentions that his regiment was shaken and fell into confusion at the battle of Ekeren (1703) and that musketeers grabbed pikes and pikemen grabbed muskets. Merode commanded a Walloon regiment n the Spanish army of Flanders. I wouldn't venture a guess at this point as to whether the reason that his regiment carried pikes was tactical or financial nor can I speculate as to whether all Spanish units carried the pike.

[obriendavid]

I seem to remember reading that the Dutch were surprised at facing troops still armed with pikes which wouldn't come as a surprise if the Brits were still armed with them. This discussion came up many years ago on the Lace Wars group and the general consenus had been that some men were down on the regimental lists as pikemen but had all been trained in using muskets and didn't take their pikes with them.

Cheers
Dave

[hwiccee]

Dave: Can you remember where you read about the Dutch being surprised at facing pikes. This would be very interesting as the Dutch also had pikes until circa 1707!

[huevans07]

Iain, the omission of pike drill from the 1708 Regulations would tend to indicate that the use of pikes was so obsolete that there would be no conceivable occasion in which a regt would deploy with pikes. If pikes had been routinely used in Flanders up until 1707, it seems difficult to imagine that there would be a total omission of their use from the drillbooks in the very next year. Possibly the Coldstream were the last unit to use pikes in the army and the use had already almost died out.

[huevans07]

It also raises interesting questions about how the English could have engaged in musketry duels with the French with any chance of winning. If the French deployed all-musket units and the British mixed pike and shot, then presumably the French would have been able to concentrate a far greater amount of firepower into the regimental frontage. How then would a British unit have been able to stand up to a French one?

And then one could get into the issue of how having 33% pikes would affect the platoon firing system.