The Dutch Blue Guard and a Papal Banner..

[wdrenth]

@Bazz

A statement like "he recruited and paid his own household troops" can probably be understood in various ways.

As Motorway indicated, the Garde were on the Staten van Oorlog, which means that they were paid for by the States (i.e. the state) and not an individual (i.e. the prince). It is also important to understand that the States-General as a body/institution were the sovereign of the Dutch Republic, not some prince. If it were paid for by an individual it would, I guess, not appear in on the balance (why put something in the books you didn't pay for?).

William of Orange had of course ample powers in appointing officers he thought fit and suitable to serve in the Garde. Likewise, he had also financial means to ensure the Garde looked properly, even though he may not have been the official colonel-proprietor responsible for that kind of things.

So, the statement "recruited and paid for" should probably read with some grains of salt.

One unit William paid for himself was a body of 100 Swiss: the Cent Suisses. Please see http://britisharmylineages.blogspot.nl/ ... %20Suisses for more information.

regards,
Wienand

[Bazz]

Hi Wienand,

The reference to the Staten van Oorlog is very interesting. Offcourse the Guards would be on the Dutch army establishment and OOB, but who paid for them seems to be a point of contention. Carswell seems very emphatic about it, but I will do some more research to see where he got his information from.

You are absolutely right that the States-General were sovereign in the United Provinces, not William of Orange. I don’t think however that anyone would dispute that at that time William of Orange was the most powerfull, the richest and probably the most popular man in the United Provinces and the one responsible for anything military. One of the reasons for his influence was offcourse that he got on really well with Fagel, the Raadpensionaris (17th century equivalent of a Prime-Minister).

What is important to understand though is that William of Orange wasn’t just another Dutch subject, but a sovereign Prince in his own right. By the rules of those times it meant that he could write out letters of marque (like William the Silent did with the sea-beggars) and could declare war on another ruler if he so wished (admittedly without the support of the States-General it would be a very short war). For example the invasion of England was not an invasion by the United Provinces, but a private enterprise by William to lay claim his supposed rights. The States-General supplied him with ships, soldiers and money for this enterprise, because they could see the (economic) benefits of having Britain as allies against Louis XIV.

The question who paid for the Guards is not all that relevant really. William of Orange’s relationship with the Blue Guards is what I am getting at. It is pretty obvious that the relation between William and the Blue Guards was a very close and personal one. The Guards were commanded by his maternal Uncle Henrik Trajectinus, Count of Solms-Braunfels. He took them to and kept them in Great Britain as his personal Guards and he was apparently almost moved to tears when his beloved poor Guards started getting in to serious trouble at the hands of the Jacobites on the otherside of the Boyne.

As regards to the Papal Banner on the Boyne I did find an interesting story of a painting by a Dutch Master that hangs in Stormont Castle (the seat of government in Northern Ireland). It purports to show William III getting blessed by the Pope from on high. All the men are wearing Orange Sashes and there is a Banner visible with a Burgundian Cross and Crossbows. Apparently early last century some Unionist vandals tried to destroy this painting, because it offended their loyalist sensibilities! All I can say is that when I lived in Northern Ireland I never saw a mural like this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings ... pe--168783

[Motorway]

Hi Wienand,

The reference to the Staten van Oorlog is very interesting. Offcourse the Guards would be on the Dutch army establishment and OOB, but who paid for them seems to be a point of contention. Carswell seems very emphatic about it, but I will do some more research to see where he got his information from.

The Blue Guards were blue for quite some time, and were in pay by the republic. Of course noone will deny the personal bond with WIlliam but to consider the Blue Guard a personal asset of Wiiliam is a stretch too far for me and I am very interested in further evidence.

You are absolutely right that the States-General were sovereign in the United Provinces, not William of Orange. I don’t think however that anyone would dispute that at that time William of Orange was the most powerfull, the richest and probably the most popular man in the United Provinces and the one responsible for anything military. One of the reasons for his influence was offcourse that he got on really well with Fagel, the Raadpensionaris (17th century equivalent of a Prime-Minister).

I think you are underestimating the power of the regents, especially those in Holland and Amsterdam.

What is important to understand though is that William of Orange wasn’t just another Dutch subject, but a sovereign Prince in his own right. By the rules of those times it meant that he could write out letters of marque (like William the Silent did with the sea-beggars) and could declare war on another ruler if he so wished (admittedly without the support of the States-General it would be a very short war). For example the invasion of England was not an invasion by the United Provinces, but a private enterprise by William to lay claim his supposed rights. The States-General supplied him with ships, soldiers and money for this enterprise, because they could see the (economic) benefits of having Britain as allies against Louis XIV.

Oh dear . Well, there are several versions as to the how's and when's of 1688. Latest research by Dr Jonathan Israel (who is giving a real interesting and clarifying look on Dutch 17th century politics) shows that it really was an invasion by the Dutch republic and NOT a private venture by William.
[/quote]

The question who paid for the Guards is not all that relevant really. William of Orange’s relationship with the Blue Guards is what I am getting at. It is pretty obvious that the relation between William and the Blue Guards was a very close and personal one. The Guards were commanded by his maternal Uncle Henrik Trajectinus, Count of Solms-Braunfels. He took them to and kept them in Great Britain as his personal Guards and he was apparently almost moved to tears when his beloved poor Guards started getting in to serious trouble at the hands of the Jacobites on the otherside of the Boyne.

I agree...

As regards to the Papal Banner on the Boyne I did find an interesting story of a painting by a Dutch Master that hangs in Stormont Castle (the seat of government in Northern Ireland). It purports to show William III getting blessed by the Pope from on high. All the men are wearing Orange Sashes and there is a Banner visible with a Burgundian Cross and Crossbows. Apparently early last century some Unionist vandals tried to destroy this painting, because it offended their loyalist sensibilities! All I can say is that when I lived in Northern Ireland I never saw a mural like this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings ... pe--168783

I did some asking about the painting in Nothern Ireland and at the NI parliament but I am still waiting for an answer. As far as I know know it's not even sure if William is depicted on the painting!

BTW..I have of copy of Tranen van Blood for you, if you want it just send me a PM.

[Mats]

I did some asking about the painting in Nothern Ireland and at the NI parliament but I am still waiting for an answer. As far as I know know it's not even sure if William is depicted on the painting!

http://www.writingsinrhyme.com/index.ph ... -the-pope/

Cheers,

Mats

[Bazz]

@Motorway

The invasion of 1688 was certainly a ‘de jure’ invasion by a claimant of the British Crowns, ie William of Orange. Although we could debate whether the invasion of 1688 was a ‘de facto’ invasion of England by the United Provinces, I think I will pass since I don’t think I deserve comments like “Oh dear ” neither do I think that they are very constructive for a healthy debate.

[Mats]

@Bazz Please remember: Many a true word is spoken in jest.
Mats

[Bazz]

@Bazz Please remember: Many a true word is spoken in jest.
Mats

That would be a truly profound statement if in this context it actually meant something. I don’t consider being patronized to be very jesty, humorous or in any other way funny, nor do I see an epiphany of truth emanating from the uncalled for comment.

[wdrenth]

I think professor John Childs, chronicler of the post Restoration ''British army'', put it right by saying that

William did not gamble with the whole of his political and military future in both the United Provinces and Europe to rescue the protestant religion in England out of philanthropic considerations.

(see also http://britisharmylineages.blogspot.nl/ ... -1688.html)

cheers,
Wienand

[markdo]

The painting at Stormont does not show the Battle of the Boyne, it shows the by-then King William arriving in Ireland, with the pope (apparently) sitting on a cloud.

I found a BBC story about it including a small picture just using google.

Mark

[Motorway]

Yep, it was on the news in 2006?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/nort ... 263210.stm

This is a bigger picture of the painting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings ... pe--168783

[Rebel]

Interesting thread....

Wienand - As always you've hit the nail on the head. Pragmatism and not philanthropy was William's "P" word !! Despite the internvening centuries the only thing that drove William wasn't his Faith or indeed that of his nemesis Louis XIV but rather the annexation by France of the principality of Orange, as simple as that.

Bazz - 'de jure' claimant ? a) William was well down the pecking list as a claimant to the throne, the "claim" he exercised was that of his wife. You will of course recall that when advised by Parliament that they would recognize Mary as Queen regnant and he as prince consort, his response was to threaten to pack his bags and return to the UDP leaving them to pick the bones when James inevitably came calling again backed by either Irish or French troops (Bloody Assizes Part II). And b) legally speaking Mary's claim went out the window on June 10 1688 with the arrival of James Francis Edward. The spuriousness of the smuggled baby claims etc can be illustrated by the fact that William did everything in his power to encourage/allow James to skip the country allowing his supporters to then claim that James had, in fact, abdicated...

As for the painting only definite thing is that it has a Pope. Stylized figures all wearing orange or red sashes...for my sixpence would be grateful if anyone could identify the flag in the right foreground with the burgundian cross and crossbow on it, if it's not Dutch then it's doubtful that it's William.

And on the subject of popes, Innocent's support of William was in his position within the League of Augsburg, whose bogey man was Louis XIV, it was nothing to do with the English sucession and the Williamite War.
Consider the aftermath of the Boyne and the papal rocket that was sent to Vienna when Innocent found out that Te Deums' had been sung in Vienna to celebrate William's victory over James....

- Mike

[markdo]

Leaving aside the Papal Banner or not for the Dutch Blue Guards: what was William's flag when he landed at Brixham?
Did he use a family coat of arms just the one with the motif about religious freedom and the liberties of England?
What were the colours of this latter?

Mark

[Motorway]

This a "schoolplate" based on print by Romeyn the Hooghe showing a coat of arms :

http://www.historischbarendrecht.nl/item/items/138.html

and anonymous prints showing colours with religious themed motives:

https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/RP-P-1909-447

[markdo]

Thanks

Mark

[SteveRCR]

WoW, what a great read this was. Can't believe this started back in 05.

I can see how this gets corrupted, two of my great great ....... Grandfathers came to Canada at the start of the AWI. Both served in English Regts but one volunteered for the 53rd Foot leaving the 5th Irish Dragoon Regiment. The other came from Scotland to serve in the 26th Foot. The 53rd heavily recruited in Ireland to get up to strength. Both were not typical English Regt though that's what they were on the establishment.

On another point mentioned, in 93 outside Sarajevo I ran into a group of croat's that had a Muslim fighting with them against his fellow Bosnian Muslims. I asked why, his simple answer was these are my friends and that is my village. Probable the only time I saw or heard of that in my 3 tours there.

Anyway, great read, stirred up a lot of memories.