JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

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Dfogleman2
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JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:26 am

I just received my first order of Warfare Miniatures and the look great! My first regiment will be the James's Footguards. From what I can tell, the coats are red with blue facings with blue stockings. Buttons are yellow metal. What would be the hat lace of the enlisted men? Does anyone know for sure? Thanks in advance for any info.

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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Churchill » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:02 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by barr7430 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:42 am

Dannie,

some considerations and therefore flexibility:

Stockings and Breeches could be Red if you don't fancy blue. There is no definitive data.
Hat lace usually matched button and lace colour ie white metal buttons - white hat lace. Brass buttons - yellow hat lace.

Many illustrations I have seen for the Footguards show white hat lace.

Their standards: Probably a variation on the Cross of St George. I have seen some references including Mark Allen (whom I greatly respect) show them with the Royal Standard. Hall shows a mini version of the Royal standard in the centre of the St George Cross. Nice, probably would look good on the table but logic dictates that these conjectures are unlikely.
The Cavalry Lifeguard would have been senior and so if anyone was carrying a Royal standard it would be them. Again, this is also a bit unlikely as the standard may actually mark the position of the KING himself. Unlikely he'd be galloping at the front of a Horse regiment! He was by then nearly 60 years old.

All that said, I gave my regiment Le Roi d'Angleterre the royal standard becasue it looked lovely.. so I often offer advice but don;t take it :oops:
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Dilly » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:37 pm

Danni,
Don't forget the priest to lead them into battle 8)
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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Diomedes » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:46 pm

The Irish Lifeguard of Horse (more correctly the Horse Guards) carried a standard that was almost the twin of that used by the 1st Troop of the English Horse Guards (there is a great colour plate reproduced in the special on the "War of the Three Kings" from the Military History Society of Ireland)

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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by barr7430 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:55 pm

Diomedes that is interesting. Where did you get the publication and how much pls?

thanks

B
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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Diomedes » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:58 pm

I got it direct from the Military History Society of ireland http://www.mhsi.ie/ I can't see anywhere on the site now to buy from but and email should elicit details. There is an index of their journals on the site (foc) and sorry the special was the War of the Two Kings and it concerns onlt the Irish Campaigns of 1690/1691 - I think I paid about £15 for mine, expensive but well worth the price. Hope that helps :)

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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Rebel » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:45 pm

Interesting.

I note that in other posts on the forums we are enjoined by Barry as, in his reply to "Diomedes" to enter into lively debate because..."This is exactly the kind of reasoned and evidence based argument that I really cherish on this forum. You have cited sources for your point of view and put it in the public domain", and yet - forgive me - all I seem to be reading is a hatchet job and so to the post in question:

During the Irish Campaign, the uniforms of James Footguards and indeed the 1st/2nd troops of Horseguards and the troop of Horse Grenadiers mirrored those in use upon his accession (cf. Nathan Brooks/Sandford) and up to his deposition by the supporters of William III. For the foot it was a red coat lined and faced in the Royal Livery (i.e. blue as noted both by Brooks and in the Journal of John Stevens, both of whom saw James' guards face to face), the first battalion would most certainly have worn blue breeches, blue stockings (and officers, white sashes fringed blue); it could be that the second battalion may have been differenced by having red breeches and stockings, but there is no real substantive evidence on this score and so would be no more than pure speculation.

And now to the regimental colours - Now I've not seen a Mark Allen version, although I would point out that in his own words in his 2002 series of articles on the Dutch Army of William III he readily admits that much of his work on the period is speculative being as he has drawn mainly upon black and white line images for his references whereas Barry's "logic" as opposed to any form of literary evidence as cherished above categorically rules out the Robert Hall version that features in my Osprey on the Boyne.

OK, let's turn to Brooks (p10/11) first of all:

"This regiment flyes a St George's cross on a white field"
"The King's company is crimson, cypher and crown embroidered in gold"
"Each colours has a white field, the King's own excepted, with a red cross with these* badges in the centre of these crosses".

* Brooks actually lists the 20 company badges - The reason for this number is that whilst the regiment has 24 companies, 2 per battalion are grenadiers and carry no company colours.

And now to Stevens (p.215):

"The Royal Regiment of Foot Guards, being 26 companies, 80 in a company, 2,080 private men besides officers. All well armed, clad in red lined with blue, their colours the royal colours of England St. George's cross, and the arms of the four kingdoms".

Apologies that I don't have a full copy of Sandford's account of the Coronation of James II, but I'm working on it.

Interestingly enough, neither Barry nor "Diomedes" in both this thread or the other on Kirke's Regt/Queen Dowager's/2nd Foot choose to mention the work of Samuel Milne Milne (no that's not a typo) who was the doyen of British military vexillography (cf. Colours and Standards of the British Army 1660 to 1881) who when covering the Footguards under King Charles II noted the following:

"In the orderly room of the Grenadier Guards is an ancient coloured drawing or diagram, purporting to be original designs for the colours in 1661 by Sir Edward Walker; the royal standard or first colour is pure white throughout, having in its centre the King's cypher, C.R., in gold under the crown; all the rest are white, the red cross of St. George covering the whole field, the various badges being in the centre. The drawing is somewhat indistinct, and beyond the royal standard the various colours are difficult to identify.

It may possibly have been only a design drawn up for approbation, but it is the oldest representative evidence of any standards belonging to an existing regiment. The old drawing proves one thing, namely, that the use of St. George's cross in the dexter canton, almost universal 10 or 20 years before,' had been discontinued, and that the red cross now covered the entire field. Either upon its white ground, or within a narrow edging of white to separate it from the ground of hue the flag, it formed the universal pattern for infantry colours until quite the end of the century."

Now that was Milne Milne at the end of the reign of Charles II, here is the beginning of his commentary on the Coronation of James II:

"The coronation of James the Second, 3rd May 1685, was carried out with unusual military pomp and ceremony; for the important event, new colours were provided for the two regiments of Foot Guards, but of a
different pattern to any used before. The company badges of the King's Guards were done away with altogether, the blue flag' of the Coldstream
regiment abolished, white ones, with the red cross of St. George, being substituted; indeed, the latter regiment in uniform and equipments, as well as standards, was made to conform in almost every respect to the King's Guards.

Sandford, in his 'History of the Coronation: gives the most ample details; with regard to the colours of the 1st or the King's Guards, he states: 'The standard of the King's own company was of crimson silk, embroidered in the centre with the royal cypher, J.R., ensigned with an imperial crown in gold. The colonel's, also of crimson silk, was not charged with any distinction or device. The lieutenant-colonel's colour was of white silk, with the cross of St. George throughout, of crimson
silk (as were the remaining 21), in the middle of which was painted an imperial crown in gold. The major's colour was distinguished by a pile wavy of crimson silk issuing out of the dexter chief of the first quarter, and an imperial crown of gold in the centre of the cross. The eldest captain's colour was distinguished by one of the King's cyphers, viz., J.R. interlaced, and an imperial crown painted in the middle of the cross, of gold; the second captain wa, differenced by two royal cyphers and
crowns in the cross; the third by three; the fourth by four, and so on every captain to the twentieth, who had his cross charged with 20 cyphers and crowns, and thus they appeared at James's coronation.'

And so when we take into account that the Royal Standard is an indication of the presence of the sovereign whilst the "Arms" of the four kingdoms is a quartered shield in the form of a device or distinction, we also - through eyewitnesses - have a description of the location of said device, exactly in the middle of a red Cross of St George set on a white field, not only exactly as depicted by Robert, but also in the same position as any other devices on any other English colours of the period, even those created specifically to give the presence of the Dutch guards some legitimacy.

Note that when Louis XIV gives up the ghost on James and accedes to demands that he no longer acknowledge James as King of England etc, and following the dissolution of the "Army in Exile" the footguards - prior to becoming Dorrington's regiment - revert to the colours issued at the time of the coronation.

Hopefully that suffices to meet the criteria of reasoned argument backed up by reputable sources.

All the best,


Mike.


PS I'll also be responding on the Kirke issue.
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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by barr7430 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:30 pm

Mike,

thanks for the post, disappointed that you seem a bit irked, that is obvious in the way you have written.
Hatchet job... no I don't think so. What would be the point of that? this is not TMP.

Your post is long and high on detail but you will need to simplify it for me please as I am not getting exactly the point you have made.

I understood everything very well down to the point where the number of the captain was represented by an equivalent number of crowns and cyphers. All OK so far.
Where you lose me is the next bit, the introduction of the quartered Royal Arms. How do we get from the cyphers to the quartered Royal Arms?
I didn't find that in anything you had noted previously. The cypher/crown combination is not the coat of arms or am I missing something?
I have read the post several times now but must be missing something obvious. Please help me with that

thanks

B
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Re: JamesII Irish Footguards Uniforms

Post by Rebel » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:49 am

Barry,

no problem.

Basically you will see from the various quotes that all agree that the effective regimental colour for the guards is a white field with a red cross of St George and that any form of ornamentation is placed in the centre of the cross.

Stevens (again quoted) who saw the flag close up says that the colour of the footguards contained the "Arms of the Four Kingdoms", and in this instance (and any number of pub signs) the word "Arms" is a shortened form of "Coat of Arms" which heraldically always appears in a shield format. Thus what we have according to an eyewitness is a white flag with a red cross of St George with the Royal (Coat of) Arms, and where does everyone from eyewitnesses to the principal source on British Military vexillology place any devices on these flags - the centre of the cross. Therefore what John Stevens is describing is a red cross etc etc with the central part of the cross occupied by a shield displaying the Royal Coat of Arms, exactly as represented in Robert's plate.

Hope this helps.

- Mike.
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