Dismounted dragoons

[obriendavid]

I can't find any info on how dragoons performed when dismounted, I have assumed that they just skirmished and I know some had taken part in storming parties at sieges but were they also trained to form lines and fire volleys like normal infantry? Also if they were trained to form lines would they form up in 3 or 6 lines of troops depending on which army they came from? The main reason I'm asking is if I should base them up as normal infantry or fit them onto a wider base as skirmishers.
Cheers
Dave

[Captain of Dragoons]

To add to Dave's comments above were dragoon regiments in our period formed in companies or sqds? From what I have read from the earlier 17th Century in regards to Cromwell's Dragoon Regiment in the NMA it was companies.

The Scots Dragoons did dismount at Blenheim and fought as infantry. The failed French counter attacked at Ramillies on the French right/ Confederate Left was made by dismounted dragoons.

cheers
Edward

[obriendavid]

To add to Dave's comments above were dragoon regiments in our period formed in companies or sqds? From what I have read from the earlier 17th Century in regards to Cromwell's Dragoon Regiment in the NMA it was companies.
Edward

The lists I've been looking at for the Irish Jacobite cavalry all mention how many troops they have and I seem to remember reading somewhere that 3 or 4 troops were used to form squadrons.
Hope this helps.

[obriendavid]

The Scots Dragoons did dismount at Blenheim and fought as infantry. The failed French counter attacked at Ramillies on the French right/ Confederate Left was made by dismounted dragoons. Edward

The French had a number of dismounted dragoons defending barricades on their right flank at Blenheim but I can't find any reference to how they actually fought, was it in formed ranks firing as line infantry. I'm basically looking for info on the Irish Jacobite dragoons and as most of those were hastily formed with little time for training I would assume they would only skirmish when dismounted. This seemed to be how O'Neil's dragoons fought when defending the ford at Rosnaree.
Cheers
Dave

[Churchill]

Ray.

[obriendavid]

First of all the Boyne, it was Colonel Sir Niall O'Neill's dragoon regiment that defended the ford at Rossnaree against Count Schomberg's flanking column.
Ray.

I'm trying to figure out how they were fighting, was it skirmishing or did they form ranks like regular infantry but not as well?
The French dragoons defending at Blenheim I would think because of the small area they were cramped into would try to fight like regular infantry, I assume? but I was just trying to find out if this was something that they practiced.
Cheers
Dave

[obriendavid]

Dave, in BLB2 they fight mounted as "Bullet Cavalry" which means their slightly worse off than "Blade Cavalry".
They dismount into infantry, but each squadron needs a horse holder and so are based with 5 dragoons to each infantry base.
When I get round to doing mine I'll have 3 figures in the front rank and 2 figures in the 2nd rank.
Cheer's,
Ray.

Thanks Ray but I already knew how they operate under the rules, it was their historical training and use I was trying to discover.
Cheers
Dave

[maciek]

Imperial dragoons when on foot formed in 3 ranks and used regular infantry tactic.

[Churchill]

Ray.

[danschorr]

I want to correct a statement made in Rray's last post. He stated:

the Danish Horse had been raised specifically to serve in Ireland and were among the most inexperienced troops in William's army.

. I strongly disagee with this. The three Danish regiments of horse were raised by taking drafts from the existing 10 regiments of Danish horse. This was common practice in the period, and wasn't the British Guard battalion in the AWI formed the same way? Where they "inexperienced"? The men and officers in the Danish regiments were exercised and drilled, and were no more inexperienced than the Horse or either side. In fact, compared with the Jacobite and English horse were probably more experiened. I don't know where this "myth" started, but it is completely erroneous. There is no foundation for it.

Sorry for hijacking this thread.

Dan

[footslogger]

First of all the Boyne, it was Colonel Sir Niall O'Neill's dragoon regiment that defended the ford at Rossnaree against Count Schomberg's flanking column.
Ray.

I'm trying to figure out how they were fighting, was it skirmishing or did they form ranks like regular infantry but not as well?
The French dragoons defending at Blenheim I would think because of the small area they were cramped into would try to fight like regular infantry, I assume? but I was just trying to find out if this was something that they practiced.
Cheers
Dave

You prolly already know this, but in the period drill books, the dismounted dragoons drill is identical to the regular infantry drill. And I haven't seen anything in them that has specific instructions for anything we would call a skirmish drill.

[obriendavid]

No need to appolgise Dan I found the points you put forward very interesting as I too have read on a number of accounts that the Danes were very inexperienced. From your comment I suppose you could perhaps they were inexperienced at operating together but as the regiments tended to fight as seperate troops or squadrons then that lack of 'experience' wouldn't come into play.

To hijack my thread even further, we had similar problems trying to rate the Sardinian troops in the Crimea as the troops were well officered, had some experience but battalions and cavalry regiments were made up from different companies from different regiments so had never operated together before but Barry and myself both decided that were still good quality troops and should be rated as such. Fortunately their performance at the Tchernya lived up to our rating.
Cheers
Dave

[obriendavid]

Imperial dragoons when on foot formed in 3 ranks and used regular infantry tactic.

Thank you!
Do you have any references for more info on dismounted dragoon tactics?
It's really annoying that all those authors and eyewitness' all those years ago didn't consider us poor wargamers trying to decypher what their few comments actually meant.
Cheers
Dave

[toggy]

Very interesting regarding the Danish cavalry, I too have seen reference made to the poor quality of the Danish horse at the Boyne, this being attributed to them being newly recruited. I was puzzled as to why they would be new recruits when the Danes were hired out across Europe in an almost permanent arrangement, and as cavalry are both a lot more expensive to equip, and take much more time to train, I would think that they were very unlikely to be recruited at short notice, given the time scale of the Irish campaign.

However that doesn't explain their poor performance against the Jacobite horse, may just have been poorly led on the day, or has been mentioned with the Jacobite regiments, the loss of key commanders can dishearten most troops, even if they have the upper hand.

Bob

[obriendavid]

Very interesting regarding the Danish cavalry, I too have seen reference made to the poor quality of the Danish horse at the Boyne, this being attributed to them being newly recruited. I was puzzled as to why they would be new recruits when the Danes were hired out across Europe in an almost permanent arrangement, and as cavalry are both a lot more expensive to equip, and take much more time to train, I would think that they were very unlikely to be recruited at short notice, given the time scale of the Irish campaign.

However that doesn't explain their poor performance against the Jacobite horse, may just have been poorly led on the day, or has been mentioned with the Jacobite regiments, the loss of key commanders can dishearten most troops, even if they have the upper hand.
Bob

It could be that they were caught whilst still trying to form up from crossing the river, I seem to remember reading that by the time they were crossing the river it was rising again.
Cheers
Dave