French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

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Glorfindel
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French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Glorfindel » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:50 pm

Hi chaps,

I am just about to start work on a new French Infantry Regiment for my (slowly) growing army based on the 1672-78 Franco-Dutch War. This will be the Regiment de Plessis-Praslin which, according to Susane, became Regiment de Poitou in 1682.

Osprey provides information for the standard trooper uniform (grey, lined with blue). However, I would be grateful for any information people may have on the drummer's uniform. Again, according to osprey, these would either be the standard Royal livery or something reflecting the Regimental owner's family colours (eg. green and orange for Lyonnais).

The Osrey book gives a couple of examples of those Regiments which didn't use the Royal livery (I have used one for my Crussol Regiment which is just being based up). Apparently, those Regiments which didn't use Royal livery had some very colourful drummers.

I get the impression that this information may be very difficult to obtain. If there is nothing out there, I will probably just go with the Royal livery.

Many thanks for any help you can give.

Cheers,

Phil
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by simon boulton » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:03 pm

Phil,
I'll have a look and see what I can find but a lot of these liveries are not known. The Royal livery seem to be used by regiments that were connected to a region rather than named after their colonel. Then of course there are the royal regiments who used it too.
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by conflans » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:15 pm

Probably, the most comprehenisve informationon liveries for French drummers is found in Robert Hall's work on the French army. Not only did he consult all the standard works and try to exhoaust the standard sites where informaiton could be expected, he checked various notary records where cloth was purchased and other uniform related transactions were conducted and came up with some previoulsy unearthed information.
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by footslogger » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:13 pm

As Poitou they would wear the Royal Livery, not sure about what they would have before. Hall doesn't add anything in this particular case.
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Glorfindel » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:51 pm

Hi chaps,

Many thanks for your help with this awkward question. The Royal Livery it is.

Thanks again,


Phil
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Arthur
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Arthur » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:13 pm

Hi Phil. Sorry to chime in rather late, but I haven't been around much lately. Long story short, we know very little about the uniforms and flags of the Plessis-Praslin regiment during the Dutch war.

References to grey coats line blue postdate the 1670's and only apply with certainty to the mid-1680's and beyond, after the unit stopped being a régiment de gentilhomme - i.e one bearing the name of the family or individual who owned it. From August 31 1682, it was no longer the property of the Plessis-Praslin family and took the name of the French province of Poitou, its colonel being then Nicolas Duplessis-Guénégaud, marquis de Biville. The drummers also began wearing the King's livery at this time (see below).

The colours carried by Plessis-Praslin during the 1670's are not recorded, the Poitou flag having been introduced in 1682 only and therefore not used during the Dutch War. Ditto regarding the rank and file's dress : the unit may have worn grey coats lined blue during the Dutch War, but it's just as conceivable that this uniform was only introduced after the peace of Nijmegen or in 1682 when the regiment became Poitou. Before that, coats may have been either grey or brown, and lined with a different facing colour : we just don't know.

The only certainty was that the drummers did not wear the king's livery before 1682 as one of the prerogatives of the colonel of a régiment de gentilhomme was to have his musicians clad in his personal livery. Since the Plessis-Praslin family belonged to the Choiseul household, their own livery was most likely that of Choiseul, which René Chartrand describes as green with silver lace in the 18th century. So I'd personally go with drummers in green coats laced silver for the 1670's.
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Glorfindel » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:48 am

Arthur,

Very many thanks for the information above - this is really appreciated.

For uniforms and colours, it seems as though there is no information either way so I will just stick with grey faced blue and the Poitou flag (particularly as i have recently bought this from Barry !) If I ever come across a button counter who contests this (there really are people like this ??), then I will be keen to know where they get their information from...

Wouldn't it be nice for a treasure trove of information to turn up which provides all these missing links ? This is definitely on my sad 'to do' list if I win the lottery !

Anyway, I was very interested in your comment that 'gentlemen' Regiments, owned by particular families, definitely didn't apply the Royal livery as this will be very useful for future battalions.

Finally, you mention the Choiseul family livery being described by Chartrand as green and silver. To help with future battalions, I would be interested to know where this comes from - I have the Louis XV Osprey series by Chartrand and wondered if it is mentioned in there ?

Thank you again for the extremely helpful reply.


Phil
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Arthur » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:30 pm

The thing with the Dutch War is that it was a transitional period for uniforms, which were gradually adopted between the late 1660's and 1680. There are a few eyewitness reports of what some units wore between 1666 and 1678 but the majority of regiments remain largely undocumented and terra firma is only reached after 1680-1685 when it comes to information regarding coat and facing colours for the whole army - or at least most of it.

The treasure trove you mention does exist in real life, though : the French army's War Archives in Vincennes contain a wealth of period papers detailing all aspects of military life during the reign of Louis XIV. But as with all research work involving archives and period documents, sifting through endless cartons of material requires a certain experience, not to mention the fact that it is fastidious and time-consuming work that demands the patience of a benedictine monk. People like Hall, Chartrand or Boeri have been working out of that source for a while already, but it will be a long time before its is thoroughly explored and exhausted. I've occasionally fancied having a go at it myself (all the more so as I live about three miles from Vincennes), but I simply don't have the time to do it.

Back to the subject at hand, Chartrand gives the Choiseul livery in his Osprey book on Louis XV's cavalry (page 39) and his source is Beneton de Morangue's book on heraldry published in 1739 and entitled Traité des marques nationales.

Re the issue of liveries, the king's livery was used by all units bearing the royal distinction (including some foreign corps such as Royal Italien or Royal Savoie) and by those regiments named after French provinces. Since nothing was ever simple during the ancien régime, there were nevertheless a few exceptions : Lyonnais had special permission from the king to use the Villeroy livery of green and orange you mentioned above, a prerogative that survived until the mid 1730's. And Maine, which had been Turenne's old regiment until 1675, used the red lined blue livery of the Duc du Maine who took over after Turenne's death (and also happened to be Louis XIV's favourite bastard son).

All other units were known as gentlemen's regiments (régiments de gentilshommes) and would have their musicians clad in the livery of their mestre de camp, or colonel proprietor in the parlance of the day. Which is of course the source of many headaches for painters and wargamers : the prominent households such as Condé, Bourbon, Turenne, Aumont, Boufflers or Orléans are not a problem since their liveries are well known and abundantly illustrated in period documents, but the lesser noblemen are often poorly documented, especially if their tenure as mestre de camp was a brief one - and some regiments changed hands five or six times during the reign of Louis XIV alone, which adds further complexity to the matter.
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Motorway » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:00 am

Great info Arthur. Students of the French army are very lucky with this wealth of information on the Ancien Regime. You really should do some research in the archives, it's very rewarding and great fun.
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Re: French Infantry Regiment 'Plessis-Praslin'

Post by Arthur » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:58 pm

Ah, I'd love to do that, believe me : the problem isn't motivation but rather time. I'm currently writing a book on a subject totally unrelated to military history and finding the odd couple of hours to work on the manuscript on a regular basis is a constant struggle already, so time-consuming research in the French military archives will have to wait until better days, I'm afraid :(
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
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