Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

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SteveRCR
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Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by SteveRCR » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:26 pm

All I have for ref of the is the "Venningen Gendarmes" (Palatinate) is C.S. Grant books for the unit but I like to start building my Blenheim era forces with Warfare Minatures and they looked like a good place to start till more WSS comes online.

are codes LOA 45b,51a,51b be suitable for them?

Not much given for the Palatinate in the book, just that they started the war with the older fashion, cuirass, tricorne etc..

thanks for any help in advance :)

Steve
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by turrabear » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:33 am

have you tried material on the war of spanish sucession the armies of palitine and cologne by august kuhn and the army of electorail palatine by claus peter colberg and robert hall.
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by SteveRCR » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:42 pm

Well since I seem to have picked an obsure unit I have bought the Hall cd:

ARMY OF THE ELECTORATE PALATINE 1690-1716
Author: Goldberg, Claus-Peter & Robert Hall

Hope I get the confirmation I need here, having Palatinate Regt's from Blenheim is my tip to my wifes family tree who were among those who fled in 1710 and ended up in the Hudson Valley in New York State.
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Churchill » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Ray.
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Arthur
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Arthur » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:51 pm

Hi Steve

I have August Kühn's booklet on the armies of Cologne and the Palatinate, and this is what it gives for the Venningen Gendarmes : light grey coat lined dark green with dark green waistcoat and copper buttons, black tricorn with yellow/gold lace. Grey shabraque with green edge (according to Wagner Palatine shabraques were typically the same colour of the coat with a border in the cuff colour). Black breastplate worn over the coat, except for officers who seemingly did not wear armour and had gold lace on their tricorns.

Since the Venningen Gendarmes only wore breastplates instead of a full cuirass, the right packs would be WLOA 55a/b and WLOA 56a/b (though you'll have to substitute an unarmoured officer for the latter if you want to be finicky about it).
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Churchill » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:22 pm

Ray.
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by maciek » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:07 pm

At the time of Blenheim in 1704 they were known as the Venningen Dragoons and only had two squadrons.
These formed part of the 2nd line under the Duke of Württemberg-Teck - 36 Squadrons and brigaded with Hachenberg cuirassiers one squadron, Nagel Horse two squadrons, Erbprinz Württemberg cuirassiers three squadrons and the Cusani cuirassiers six squadrons.
There was also a Lower Rhein Circle dragoon regiment Venningen, and as in OOB you've cited dragoon regiment Venningen appears side by side with Lower Rhine horse regiment Hachenberg, I would suspect both units from Lower Rhine, not Palatinate.
Also Hall doesn't list Venningen Gendarmes at Blenheim. They operated in vincinity of Landau instead.
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Arthur » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:05 pm

Churchill wrote:Hi Arthur,

That's a good uniform discription you've provided, but did you not read my post previous to yours.
At Blenheim they are listed as the Venningen Dragoons (2 squadrons) so I doubt they were wearing the cuirass.

Regards,

Ray.
I read it, but as Maciek correctly points out, you've got the wrong Venningen regiment. The one present at Blenheim was indeed a Lower Rhine dragoon unit and not the Palatine Venningen Gendarmes described by Kühn in the uniform I mentioned above.

Methodologically speaking, you need to work from more than just one orbat for a specific battle to properly identify those tricky German units. And there's much more to the WSS than just the battle of Blenheim :wink:
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Churchill » Wed May 01, 2013 9:32 am

Ray.
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by SteveRCR » Wed May 01, 2013 10:18 am

WoW, thanks guys for all the info!

Looks like I will have to put the Palatinate on the back burner for a while. Alot of mistaken orbats out there in print :)

Steve
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by flick40 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:50 pm

After my move to Kansas City this unit is one of the first on my list to paint for my Palatinate army. (which have been sitting in packed boxes for too long)

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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Arthur » Wed May 01, 2013 11:51 pm

SteveRCR wrote:WoW, thanks guys for all the info!

Looks like I will have to put the Palatinate on the back burner for a while. Alot of mistaken orbats out there in print :)

Steve
I'd say not so much mistaken as imprecise or confusing. German troops of the period are a fairly complex subject - and one that is not entirely within my comfort zone, I must say - because of the large number of units belonging to different contingents and sometimes bearing the same name. The Lower Rhine Venningen dragoons and Palatine Venningen Gendarmes discussed here are a good case in point, all the more so as some orbats fail to specify the origin of a given unit, or list Kreis troops as imperial units and vice versa.

The trick to getting it right is to cross-reference as many reliable sources as possible in order to clear such confusions, though this is sometimes easier said than done.
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Friedrich August I. » Thu May 02, 2013 4:15 am

As owner of "german" troops I would say that this is the main problem for all investigators of this difficult times.
Most common it was that a high ranking person has ownership of certain troops, i.e., Foot Regiment Kurprinz, Cuirassier Regiment Kurprinz, Dragoon Regiment Kurprinz.
The next step was to give well serving individuals honorary Regimental commands that would lead to such thing as the Foot Regiment Beichlingen who's Chief(owner) was Greatchancelor Graf Beichlingen while Oberstmarshall v. Bieberstein was its Commander.
Even my source from 1885 is telling already of this most confusing command system of ownership and honorary command as well as real field commanders at the same time.
Maybe this is the reason why nobody wants to make german troops in this time.... :roll:
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Re: Venningen Gendarmes (Palatinate)

Post by Friedrich August I. » Thu May 02, 2013 4:25 am

But if someone thinks that this system was antiquated ... it is still in use!
Last known issue to me is that in WWII Field Marshal von Rundstedt was allways seen in the uniform of a Infantry Regimental Commander

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... dstedt.jpg

and not under his full regalia of Field Marshall and Army Group Commander.
He was Commander of the 18th Infantry Regiment

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... risch_.jpg
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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