French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

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Bitbag
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French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Bitbag » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:31 am

Hi all - as the title says, just a query on French flags in the W of the GA.

I was wondering what colour the finials for the flags would be - gold or silver? and if they had tassles ( sp? ) :? or not? and if so what colour would these be?

I've had a quick flick through BTLB and other pics, and it seems as though many of the good people on here seem to add them to their units' colours, but I'll have to order some if that's the case ( or make my own...... :wink:)

What's the story with the cravats on the colours as well - I seem to remember reading recently that colours were decorated with these after 1692 and Steinkirke. The cravats worn loosely by the combatants I know about, but I was curious if the cravats were flown from the colours as another reminder of this - by all the French infantry colours, or just on the standards of those units who were there? All French forces ( ie Cavalry as well as the foot) or just the infantry? Not helpful that I've gone and misplaced my Osprey guide to French Infantry of the period, if there was anything in there.

Any help will be gratefully received!! I just want to get the figures looking nice!!! :D

Cheers

Andy
http://haveacare.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Bitbag » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:17 pm

Think I've just found the answer - knew it would be on here with a bit of searching..... :oops:

So white flags implicitly came to mark the presence of royal authority wherever they were flown - which is why the colonel's standard was white in both infantry and cavalry units as white suggested that the colonel proprietor derived his authority from the king himself. White sashes became the distinctive mark of French troops and white cockades began to appear during the reign of Louis XIII. After the battle of Fleurus in 1690, all French military flags (infantry colours and cavalry standards alike) received a white scarf which had to be affixed to the shaft just below the spearhead.

Courtesy of Arthur and a thread
French Royal Flag/Standard - is there such a thing?PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:30 pm

So not Steinkirke....... ok, so I'm a newbie...... :roll:

Cheers for the info retrospectively Arthur, and I'll get cracking with the wire for the tassels and work out how to do the cravat/scarf thingy!!

Andy.
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:24 pm

IIRC there is an article in a recent Pike and Shot journal that states that the French infantry did not adopt tassels until atpfter 1700. The cravates were adopted after Fleurus. I would post the issue but cannot find it. The article is about the flags of the Gardes Francaises.
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by j1mwallace » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:21 am

I just read the other day that at the battle of Fleurus (1st July 1690)the French artillery fired on their own troops, confused by the multitude of different standards.
It was after this that Louis ordered the addition of the white cravats.
So backing up Mr fogleman
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Bitbag » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:02 am

Classic!!! :shock:

Saw this after putting some rather natty tassels on the flag out of wire and green stuff!!!! It was a nice piece of work as well........... :?

Thanks for any replies chaps, and having read this - I've come up with a plan....

So the Greenstuff cravat will stay on the flag, as will the tassels, but I won't put any more tassels on other flags until I know for sure. I'll put these particular tassels down to a rather dandy and enthusiastic standard bearer wanting to 'tart' his colours up even more, and leave these as the only one. It'll make my job easier in the future! (and it'll be a talking point....) :)

Grateful for any help offered, people, and when I've done both of the colours, I'll post pics on the blog - hand painting them, you see....... :? That way madness lies.....

Andy
http://haveacare.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Arthur » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:03 pm

As stated above, the cravates were adopted after the battle of Fleurus because of the casualties incurred there from 'friendly' fire. According to Pierre Charrié (THE leading expert on French flags), it was a while before their use became universal and some units may not have added them to their flagpoles until the 1700's (Charrié quotes a 1709 warrant concerning the army of the Alps in which the count of Broglie sternly reminded the regiments placed under his command that all colours were required to feature the cravat, including the white colonel's flags).

Incidentally, while the cravats were usually white, there were a few exceptions such as the Piémont regiment, which retained red cravats well into the 18th century and some foreign regiments, which had coloured rather than white cravats.

It is of course impossible to tell which units were early adopters and which ones dragged their feet for as long as they could but if you're doing 1693, then its seems reasonable to give cravats to at least the majority of your regiments.

Re the tassels, they were actually the end of a silk rope known as a cordelière whose purpose was to keep the standard wrapped around the staff when it was furled. According to Charrié, the cordelière was introduced in the early C17th, so it would be interesting to see what sources the Pike and Shot article uses to back its theory that tassels only appeared in 1700.
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Dfogleman2 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:40 pm

Giffart shows very short tassles in one picture of a GdF ensign. This would be 1696
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Arthur » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:27 pm

Image

L'Art Militaire Français was published in 1696, but Giffart's figures most likely date back a few years - the late 1680's probably, shortly after the new blue uniform was introduced in 1685.

Charrié does indeed point out that until Philippe of Orléans' regency (1715-1723), the length of the cordelières looks almost abnormally short on most period pics, and Giffart is no exception to that rule.
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Bitbag » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:45 pm

Thanks for all the info chaps - fascinating stuff!

I think I'll stick with the white cravate for the regiment I'm doing (d'Humiere's) unless anybody knows differently. I'll try and add one to the Colonel's colour as well - at the minute I've only painted up the Ordonnance colour.

I'm tempted to do the tassels ( which have ended up quite short any how) in maybe the lace colours for the musicians suggested in Mark Allen's article, for this regiment - black and white. Admittedly he does say that these colours are drawn by inference from references to a Cavalry regiment of d'Humieres, but I've painted up the drummer already with this lace, in the suggested yellow livery.

Interesting about the GdF references and the idea that the cords were used from the early 17th c. In my role of Elder Sergeant in the ECW re-enactment regiment I'm in, I'm often near the colours whilst on parade or on the march. One of our Ensigns was discussing with me the other month the idea of getting cords for his Colours. He was going to check his sources, so if we find anything for mid 17thc (ie 1642-1651), I'll let people know - obviously not a direct reference to specific regiment, but it could be a suggestion of common or general practice for 17th c colours.

On a practical note, it might be the case that the cords were wrapped up or - out the way whilst the colours were being flown fully and this is what is being shown on any illustrations. Our own ensigns often flourish their colours with counter-balanced short flagpoles (authentic for the period), and some more experienced practitioners can even throw the colours in the air and catch them again. Maybe the cords got in the way if they were let out to their full length? It's bad enough standing on the battlefield with your view obscured by the material of the colours covering your face ( and it would be disrespectful if anyone other than the Ensigns moved it away :D ), but to have cords or tassels flapping around during salutes, or when flourishing flags, might be even worse!! :D Re-enactment sometimes gets a bad press, but it does give a clue to the practicalities of doing various period military activities that historians sometimes might not have insight to!

Once again - cheers! I'll try and get a finished picture of the colours on the blog soon. 8)

Andy
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Re: French Flags - tassels and Cravats in 1693?

Post by Dfogleman2 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:03 am

Dfogleman2 wrote:IIRC there is an article in a recent Pike and Shot journal that states that the French infantry did not adopt tassels until atpfter 1700. The cravates were adopted after Fleurus. I would post the issue but cannot find it. The article is about the flags of the Gardes Francaises.
The article is in "The Arquebussier" Volume XXXIII/IV, by Stephen Ede-Borrett. "The short gold bullion cords, which appeared around 1700, served to help keep the scarf in place."

Since Charrie says they came into use at the beginning of the 17th Century I guess one could go either way on this. Maybe E-B meant only that the GdF drapeaux did not have them until later.
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