Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

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chema1986
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Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by chema1986 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:42 am

Hello guys, does anybody know if can i mix nationalities in a converged grenadier unit ?
I mean, if i put 8 figures in two 4cmx4cm bases , could it be 2 Gardes te Voet grenadiers, 2 of Royal Scots grenadiers, 2 generic Austrians and 2 Dutch grenadiers (brandenburg regiment) would it be wrong ? These are intended to fight in Flanders.
For their french counterparts i'm going to copy the unit painted by Barry and which is in the gallery section (i love even the pose of those old dixon grenadiers with the plug bayonet ready)
Thank you very much
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by Churchill » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:52 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by chema1986 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:23 pm

Thank you very much Ray. It's a shame... I was already painting them
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by jezamonos » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:55 pm

I'd say if you are painting them, keep going. Units of converged grenadiers were typically put together for sieges so what's to say that they would not be from a smaller force of mixed troops. And they will look great.

Depends how petty your opponents are...
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by barr7430 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:50 am

agreed.. come on, we're talking about toy soldiers here folks
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by chema1986 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:30 am

Thank you very much! My opponent will be my father, so he will understand ;)
I have finished half the unit, it was a shame not to field in the tabletop such a colorful "regiment".
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by Churchill » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:02 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by barr7430 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:01 pm

You're leaving us then Ray...

there are probably more historical sites somewhere
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by toggy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:54 pm

Ray, the fantasy lists will be with us shortly, when Donnybrook dark emerges from the Netherworld :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by Arthur » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 am

Not to sound like a button counter or a history nazi, but I don't think you can blame Ray for providing Chema with the historical answer he asked for in his original post. Ray's just telling it like it is : grenadiers could indeed be used as shock troops and organised into ad hoc assault parties during sieges or converged into permanent or semi-permanent elite battalions, but neither the French nor the Anglo-Dutch used permanent converged battalions made up of troops from different nationalities.

We're admittedly having fun here playing with little metal men and I for one certainly won't go on the rampage or wage a holy war over the issue of converged grenadiers. But I think one of the purposes of this forum is to allow people to exchange historical information and discuss it in an open, critical and scholarly manner. Not sure the 'who cares, they're only toy soldiers so anything goes as long as you're happy with them' stance is the best way to go about it, though people are perfectly entitled to do just that if they so desire.
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by barr7430 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:51 am

It's a broad church Arthur. Some people like to talk historical accuracy and research and all that jazz but don't do much in the way of painting, gaming or modelling as a result. Some people like to paint little lead men and enjoy talking about that process then admire the output, some like to play games and don't care much what they use to do that. My experience is that from 6 feet away it doesn't matter much what colour a button is in a mass of 800 models, perhaps from 4 inches away yes.
So, to accommodate that broad spectrum and motivate those who are putting brush to metal I think encouragement to do what you are enjoying is a strong thread that should be nurtured. Whilst supporting serious historical research and accuracy I think balance still has to be applied. Predicating absolutes on the principle of 'we have some information' thus 'all information, actions and conclusions must follow these rules' is not an approach I subscribe to in any dimension of life. If there is room for question, for doubt, for an alternative interpretation I believe it should be given airtime. If anyone could categorically say that on no occasion whatsoever between the period 1689-1714 an Allied army grouped together grenadiers of differing nationalities in an ad hoc unit to perform a task then I would say... banged to rights - you got me. Until that day.. I would let the man mix whatever he likes. He is representing a moment in time. If you follow the logic of historical accuracy to the Nth degree then anyone collecting toys soldiers could theoretically only use their troops for representations of the battle or campaign the models were painted to represent. So, Ray's Scots Grey Dragoons which represent his Blenheim Order of Battle are thus invalid. They are all wearing caps. Where is the proof? As he and other agreed at the time it is unlikely the whole regiment wore them. The available info said that caps were granted after Ramillies two years later and those being grenadier caps I recall from the thread. He chose to do that because he 'liked the look'. To then criticize someone else for mixing a couple of grenadiers in an ad hoc unit to me tells the whole story. You can't have your cake and eat it. Absolutes are dangerous in any environment. I am fundamentally opposed to the principle.
Ray is not averse to having a pop at any target he feels deserves it. I admire your defence of the principle but I am afraid once you take the lid off the can, stuff gets out.

cheers

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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by Friedrich August I. » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:03 am

Ray,
You are right in a certain point - They wouldn't have done it!

Chema,
Think about the language Barrier to command such a unit. As an adhoc unit to storm a certain point it may have been done but IMHO they would have tried to bring geman talking men like Austrian/Imperials and Prussians together.
Danish, Dutch and Scots, as they worked together over a period, would have formed another storming party.
The general Officers have been able to talk with each other even as if they have been Russian, Austrian, English or French (as the language of the court was french) the simple mercenary wasn't able to.

Btw.: The Duke and the Prince talked with each other...in FRENCH!

Thats historical and geographical, so a call on some fantasy may be elegible here by putting different "nations" together in one converged Grenadier unit over a battle or a limited amount of time.

Only my Opinion I am talking about here.

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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by chema1986 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:38 am

Hello, I absolutely agree with barry, regarding that we certainly can not know every historical detail and after all this is a game (though historical, of course ). I think i was misunterstood in my initial post... I meant creating ad hoc units of grenadiers, not permanent battalions as the danes had... For instance, during the retaking of Namur in 1695 , perhaps some mixed grenadiers group were formed to storm this or that gate or rampart, i don´t know... hehehe.
And think in the scale of the game, i'm painting that converged grenadier unit just to represent a generic "Grand Alliance" grenadier unit mixed together for a concrete task, and i decided to paint different well known regiments for "aesthetical" purposes.
I like to paint my armies to a high level historical degree... BUT i do not want them to be only usefull for a single campaing, like Barry mentioned. For Instance i want my Spanish to be used In Catalonia, Flanders or Italy , or even any colonial adventure or in the previous war of 1683-84 (Reunions War ?) so i apply the old Latin proverb "Veritas estat in medio" the virtue is at the middle point hehe and try to keep my armies historical and flexible ;)
Ray , you are right, it would be imposible to maintain such a unit for more than a single task just for languages issues among others reasons.
Thank you very much for all the serious feedback :)

pd. I apologize if my english is not perfect sometimes
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by grafthomond » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:22 am

I just reread this post after some time and it occurred to me that I think there is at least one example of a unit of converged grenadiers being formed from different nationalities. During the first siege of Limerick, the Duke of Wurtemberg describes the formation of a force to 'open the approaches' (http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/danish ... 201690.pdf). It included "two companies...formed from the 14 detached grenadiers from the seven battalions". The battalions he lists are: "the King's Guards...Brigadier Bellasis, Brigadier Hammer, Major-General Count Nassau, Brigadier Mellioniere, the Danish Guards Battalion and the Jutland Battalion". This sounds like Dutch, English, French and Danish troops in the same unit. Also worth noting that the Jutland battalion apparently had grenadiers. Some sources (e.g. Galster) suggest only the Guards had them in Ireland.
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Re: Grand Alliance converged grenadiers

Post by chema1986 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:04 am

Many Thanks ! There had to exist... Because I painted a unit a while ago :wink:
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