The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

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chema1986
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The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by chema1986 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:44 pm

Hi all!

I would like to know If any of you have read this book from Helion: "The Last Ironsides: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668" and apart from that, I have read that England sent 3000 aprox. men to aid Portugal in its war against Spain... 1 cavalry regiment and 2 infantry ... Do we know the name, uniform or flags of those units ??

Thanks a lot!

Cheers!

Chema
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Glorfindel » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:17 pm

Hi there,

I have the book (which is a very good read). My understanding is that there was originally 1 Regiment of Horse (Marquis of Schomberg's, of 8 Troops) plus two Regiments of Foot (Henry Pearson's & Francis Moore's).

Jonathon Riley's book confirms that the foot regiments 'wore red coats and were distinguished by different facings but the colours are not known.' There is a mention of red and blue caps and that the pikemen wore armour (pot helmet, back & front plates and tassets). The Horse Regiment is described as wearing buff coats and were equipped as dragoons or harquebusiers.

Hope this helps.


Phil
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by raggedroyalist » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:32 pm

This was pretty much the first book I was involved with when I stated working for Helion- just been reprinted as a paperback. Excellent book, highly recommended.

Chas
chema1986
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by chema1986 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:02 pm

Thank you very much for your quick answer! So the flags are unknown... Can you recommend me any "generic" flag for any of the foot regiments? My knowledge on English flags is very limited...

I want to make a little army of Portugal with English allies to face my Spaniards, but the sources are scarce at best hehehe.

Regards !


Chema
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by lee sherman » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:20 pm

The English flags were usually just a plain ALL one colour field for the colonels and the battalion or company would be the St George Cross with different coloured corners depending on the regiment.

Alot of the coloured flags would match the regiment uniform cuff colour eg green flag would be kirks lambs as uniform had green cuffs

This flag imagine the YELLOW is white instead 🇦🇽

Now the BLUE parts could be red, green, yellow, orange, black that would be the different battalions identification
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Rebel » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:58 am

Lee, am afraid it's not quite that simple, as what we see in the early/mid 18th century was in a state of evolution. At this period in time the flag colour was the deciding factor - In Restoration Ireland a number of troops of independent horse had orange colours yet never an orange coat or facing in sight. I have a contact who is more up on the ECW than I (my bag starts to start with the Restoration and winds down after Fontenoy....) and gauge his opinion.
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by lee sherman » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:43 am

I see I know alot did use just the St George Cross with coloured quarters but don't know what they were like before Augsberg period

ECW was more symbols, cyphurs worded scrolls and piles wavy but that's about as far as my knowledge goes for ECW flags.

Glad you found you're answers
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:26 pm

I'd say that the 1660s probably saw a transition from the ECW style of flag (St George's cross in the upper canton next to the staff, colour of the field unrelated to the coat/facing colour) to the late 17th/early 18th Century style (St George's cross covering the entire flag, colour of the "field" related to the facing colour on the coats), although both still had a Colonel's flag with a plain field and a cypher or coat of arms. This change over was complete by the reign of James II, but how much earlier that happened is outside my knowledge.
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Rebel » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:32 am

Ref standards, best point of call would be Samuel Milne Milne's "Colours and Standards of the British Army". Tradition Magazine reproduced it as a series some years back and Caliver Books have it as a reprint edition. (The original was a limited run, and a copy is the price of a small second hand car). One thing to note though is that Milne magnifies the central emblems and devices on the flags (irrespective of period) which is what I think has led to the fashion for wargames units to have flags where (scale wise) the central device would be three or four feet across, rather than the physical one foot.

Ref uniforms etc, obviously if we knew the regimental colonels we could begin to trace back, unless of course we are talking about composite regiments. Have a copy of General Riley's book at home so will dig it out and have a look when the chance presents itself.
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:57 am

Rebel wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:32 am
One thing to note though is that Milne magnifies the central emblems and devices on the flags (irrespective of period) which is what I think has led to the fashion for wargames units to have flags where (scale wise) the central device would be three or four feet across, rather than the physical one foot.
Yes, most people don't realise this - hence Milne's artistic folie has now become an unintended "standard"* of colour depiction (I think even the great Dino Lemonofides fell into the trap).

(* see what I did there? 8) )
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Rebel » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:37 am

I've been punned.......
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Rebel » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:55 am

Rebel
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Rebel » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:02 am

Would suggest horse are in a mix of buff and red coats, with a mix of armour/helmets and armour/hats or no armour/hats with the infantry in red with whatever unit flag takes your fancy.
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by Rebel » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:02 am

Again, foot can be a mix of types as three regiments were culled to make two.......
chema1986
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Re: The English Expedition to Portugal, 1662-1668

Post by chema1986 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:56 pm

Thanks for all your answers! I will choose ECW type infantry, late New Model style, red coats, but the flags probably will be generic parlamentarian ECW or Jacobite style.
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