Forgotten Soldier book

[barr7430]

Having once more re read this amazing book I decided to surf around and see what else there was about the enigmatic Guy Sajer... wow!!! he has caused a lot of debate and discord. As just a sample, check out the link below. A heavywight? scrap between American Army officers as to the authenticity of the book and Sajer himself.

There was loads more of it too!


http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm


B

[barr7430]

Just finished reading another 'memoires' type book Will we see tomorrow The story of a German cavalryman 1939-42 by Max Kuehnert. Low key and interesting, like the Guy Sajer book..no great claims to heroic deeds, more a very simple tale of a man who loved his horses and how a scout troop worked on both Eastern and Western Fronts making it credible and easy reading. There were however some odd inconsistencies(don't know if you noticed them Paul Mc?). Kuehnhert talks about witnessing a tank battle in late 1941 during which the Soviet tanks came off very badly as the German tanks outgunned them with their 88s. The Tiger(to my knowledge the earliest mount for an 88mm) did not enter service until Autumn 42. There were other 'oddities' but this one stuck out. One which puzzled me a little was his mention of easily identification of enemy tanks as they all had STAR insignia. Recently I read somewhere that the Soviets only started using the red star on tanks in 1944 as they approached the west as a means of ID. Anyone else agree/disagree with that. Did they regularly use stars of another colour on AFVs?

B

[martin terroni]

Hi Barry, Soviet tanks did have stars on turrets, I have pics of a early T-34 showing a White Star on the turret and this is a photograph. Osprey show a T-35 with a large red star on the hull as well. I would say this is correct as Soviet tank i.d was notorious for having no correct structure etc. Regards the 88mm well, it is a personal view on the war and you must allow for interpretation and grey areas. It could be a towed 88, which would follow up just behind the tanks, engage any nasty kv1 types etc. I did read and have seen evidence of mounting any type of anti-tank gun onto half-track tractors etc, so may have been something like that. Put this way if you were in the heat of the battle , what you may think is taking out the enemy, maybe something else, well documented that the allies thought every german tank they encountered was a tiger with an 88mm. Fog of War and all that. Thats my view on it, you just can' take everything as gospel or extrapolate a bit

cheers Martin

[barr7430]

Yes I agree with you to an extent Martin. I think there is a huge Fog of War issue and I in no way am criticising Herr Kuhnert , none of us are in any position to do that. What I did find curious was the particular and specific nature of his reference. I think a German soldier(even a cavalryman) would know the difference between a 50mm gun and an 88mm one and the dates were clear. He was very specific about it being a tank battle with the German tanks outmanoeuvring the T34s. I do also accept that a very high degree of licence is almost a given with historical biog - history books. That is most obvious when dialogue sections crop up. Think back to the last but three conversations you had with any randomly chosen workmate.... what did you talk about, what did he say? what did you say?.... can't remember can you!!!! How can people recall what they said thirty years ago when most of us can't even remember what they said ten minutes ago!!

So, some of it is made up(maybe lots of it) but I didn't go through the horrors of war when I was 22 therefore have no right to criticise... call it genuine curiosity

B

[martin terroni]

Totally agree Barry, its always better to keep an open mind and discussion on topics of any kind and respect other peoples view points.

[kutusov]

Hi Barry/Martin

As I've always had an interest in all things russian and a reasonable collection of books on the period .
I've also seen photos of a T34/ 42 with a white star on the turret and a crew being decorated at leningrad in front of one so decorated,I've read that some tank units in the Lenningrad area used red stars on their tanks around this time.althoughin general stars on armour was rare at this time.

when you see that most tanks hand painted slogans and unit id on the turret often using diamond or triangle shapes it wouldn't be hard to imagine these being mistaken for stars at a distance in the heat of battle.

Like Barry I'd always understood that it wasn't till late 44 early 45 that the red star insignia became standard on russian armour.
as for the 88's I've seen photo's of the luftwaffer 88's in action while a battle appears in progress so it's always possible what seemed like the German tanks taking everything out at the time was actually them getting a helping hand from the 88 gun crews out of sight of the author.
Or as you say you can often remember the wider picture but the finer details become a bit blurred over time.
K .

Another book I'd recomend is "Berlin Dance of Death" by Helmut Altner tells the story of the author aged 16 conscripted into the German army in the last 6 weeks of the war and the desperate battles he saw and took part in as the russians smashed their way into Berlin.
takes you through all the emotions of what he went through.

[PaulMc]

Hi folks,

When I read this book I actually thought that Max Kuhnert was referring to artillery and not armoured vehicles. As far as the markings on the Soviet tanks, I can't really comment as it's not an area that I have much knowledge of.

What I particularly enjoyed about the book was getting a bit of insight into a mounted scouts role on the Eastern front, from his relationship with his horse to the tactics employed in different situations. Oh, and I also rather liked reading about the author's other 'exploits', I got the impression he was 'a bit of a lad'.

As to the debate on how authentic any recollections can be, especially if they've been written years later, my own theory is that in times of great stress, images, sounds, conversations and even smells may be remembered vividly. These memories are 'burned' into the mind. I can recall events, conversations, whole days from years gone by, due to extreme circumstances affecting me at the time. I'm pretty sure it would be a similar thing for most people.

Anyway, great book, and I'm always on the lookout for more war memoirs.

PaulMc