Forgotten Soldier book

general discussion points related to gaming, painting and modelling in this period
RenevandenAssem
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Forgotten Soldier book

Post by RenevandenAssem » Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:35 am

Hi Barry,

Just noticed your remark on the book. I have been finishing the book last summer holiday in France at temperatures soaring above 30 C. A very huge contrast to the circumstances these guys fought in.

The most "disturbing" if you will, impression I got from the book was that my perception of warfare in WWII up to that point seemed to be VERY WRONG.

In my mind and with the books I have been reading up till that point warfare in WWII seemed to be well rather organised. You always here the German Army talked about as organised. You think every soldier knows the plan, and what they are about to get tasked. But in fact it is all one big chaos. They never seemed to have any idea about their "bigger" task and what the aim was of this attack or that defensive position etc etc.

The fact that all units were just one big intermingled mass when retreating seems to bowl over the idea of units going through war with some sort of reason and order to it.

If two words can sum this all up I would say CHAOS and SURVIVAL.

A great read for anyone wishing to play WWII

René
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Post by barr7430 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:10 pm

Another good book on the same subject is
The German defensive battles on the Russian Front 1944 by Alex Buchner published by Schiffer Military/Aviation History of Pennsylvannia.
It is translated from German. Buchner was also a Landser but his book covers a wider range of battles than those in which he personally participated. It is also written more from a factual rather than a personal perspective.
The info is no less overwhelming.

Cheers

Barry :)
John

The Forgotten Soldier

Post by John » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:30 pm

Hi Guys,
Just picked up on this thread. I read this book about a year or so ago and was rather intrigued by it. I gather there was some debate as to whether it was a work of fiction and whether the experiences portrayed were actual events or not. Does anybody know if it was proved to be authentic.

Either way an excellent read.

John
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Are you referring to Forgotten Soldier ?

Post by RenevandenAssem » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:51 pm

If so John I would not know, but from what I have read it is the biography of the person himself. The whole book reads very authentic and even if it would not be his biography I would say that the person making it up must have been in some hotspots himself.

But my money is on authentic.

(last time I played blackjack I lost Euro 100(fake casino money) in half an hour) so for what it is worth :-)

René
Barry

GUY SAJER

Post by Barry » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:30 pm

Rene,

what are we to conclude from that remark? Something about the quality of your money or of your judgement!??

I had a sneaky little suspicion when I was reading some of the chapters that the book may have had an element of FACT -ION about it. Not that any of it is unrealistic, quite the contrary but surely the dialogue elements are all license at least. No one can remember word for word, repeatedly what they said at a given moment thirty years before, particularly under circumstances of such horror. I think his portrayal of the Gross Deutschland training regime and the battle passages are particularly graphic and not in a Sven Hassel/Leo Kessler sort of way. The guy seems to be there once more as he writes about his friends and the squalor. I would go for true life Biog with fictional dialogue and some post war retro padding !!

Barry
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A the conversations

Post by RenevandenAssem » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:38 pm

That was one part that I did not particularly noticed, but you have a very strong point there!!

As for the money and the judgement ?
:shock: mm I would not bet on either Barry :lol:

René
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Yet another true story?...

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:35 pm

After the little bit of detective work on Guy Sajer's book I have another tantalising little slice of WWII which is well worth a look.

I came across an article on the NET whilst doing some research for my Polish forces. The article is written by M.Kamil Dziewanowski(Professor Emeritus of Contemporary Russian and East European History at Boston University amongst other things). The article is written in the first person and deals with what he describes as perhaps "the last great charge of cavalry in the history of warfare". He, as a junior officer of the 3rd Light Horse, took part in a full blown, brigade size cavalry charge at point of lance and sabre against a German infantry and motorised column near the Narew River on September 9th 1939.

I want to believe in this story so badly. For one thing it may well be such a historic event(although an Italian Cavalry regiment undertook a mounted charge in Russia at Chebotarevsky in August 1942), the last lancer charge. Secondly, it will make a fantastic wargame scenario which is where my main interest lies. This is not a squadron action but something along the lines of the Light Brigade perhaps even larger!

I have checked the locations, the orbats, the dates and the commanders cursorily against Zaloga's POLAND 1939 Osprey. All of the Prof's info checks out. There are one or two little anomalies though. In case anyone is wondering why I'm rambling on:

1. I have read many accounts of the campaign in Poland. None detail a full blown cavalry charge of this size.
2. Most books are at pains to make it clear that charging Polish cavalry in WWII is a myth perpetuated by romantics and cinema.
3.Reference books also go to great pains to make it clear that the lance was NOT carried in combat during the campaign.

For those of you who are interested, I have uploaded a copy of the Prof's original article in the WARCHEST under Scenarios, it is titled : Dziewanowski. Have a read and let me know your thoughts.

My main question marks are :

1. He mentions fighting against the East Prussian Cavalry Division. I cannot find any reference to this formation in orders of battle although there was a 1st Cavalry Brigade attached to the 4th Army and operating in the right area at the time.
2.He specifically mentions the charge being in broad daylight by the 1st Lancers and 3rd Light Horse(Both full regiments but with battle casualties), he is also specific that it was at point of sabre and lance.
3. Although the Germans were not deployed the cavalry had to advance over a mile of stubble field and meadow in full view of their target, yet the Poles suffered only three killed and 20 wounded and themselves took over 200 German prisoners.
4. Lastly, a possible trivial point but the Prof talks about being 1,500 feet from the enemy, wouldn't a European of that age talk in metres and not feet?(of course he is living in the US and this may account for it but...)

If you've given up reading or are bored I apologise but I love this story(great read) and potentially it is a dream come true wargames scenario.

Have a look and tell me what you think!

Barry :? :?:
Barry

Post by Barry » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:26 pm

Sorry, the article is under the title

The Last Charge?


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The plot thickens -Polish lancers 1939

Post by barr7430 » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:38 pm

I have been corresponding with Mike Siggins and indirectly with John Boadle(are you out there John?) on this subject.

So far the conclusions are :

Cavalry charges? YES
Lances carried during 1939 campaign? YES
Charges against Panzers? NO (against stationary armoured cars in a rear echelon area - YES)
The Prof's cavalry charge????? Needs further research.


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3rd Polish Chevauleger at Rypno 8th September 1939

Post by barr7430 » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:07 pm

I received a fascinating piece of research from John Boadle on the question ofthe above regiment's activities at Rypno during the Polish campaign.

It is so thorough that I have PDF'd it and placed it in the WARCHEST under The last charge - a rebuff?.

I must thank John publicly for the effort invested in undertaking this task although I suspect by the way he has written it that it was rather a labour of love!

This stuff makes the hobby for me! :D :D

Barry
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Re: 3rd Polish Chevauleger at Rypno 8th September 1939

Post by Anonymous » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:16 am

barr7430 wrote:This stuff makes the hobby for me! :D :D

Barry
My sentiments exactly. Good read both of them. I choose history over a Codex any day!

:D
Here's a link to a fellow Torontonian's (via South Korea) interpretation of the events in question. Whether it actually happened or not, its' still an awesome diorama.
http://www.hobbistenterprise.com/gallery/dio03.htm

thks
joe
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GREAT DIORAMA

Post by RenevandenAssem » Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:37 pm

Well his painting style might not be my cup o tea (much to clean) the whole diorama is expertly painted and posed. Very lifelike and I would say that his award list is very much deserved (and we are not talking awards of the local boyscout club either!!!!)

Makes you think that no one would be so foolish to charge tin cans like this or did they.....????

René
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:32 pm

I agree with Rene on the style for some aspects, but he has done some beautiful horses with the correct eye expressions!

Rarely have I seen medal-winning pieces with beautiul horses, let alone realistic-looking! But he has done a very good job, a little light in some cases, but nice nonetheless!

Horses are my forte'. My Grandparents had a herd (literllay, 60+) they raised them (and me) and had many high-poit and champions! ;-) I grew up with them, so I know horses very well; their appearance, behaviour, endurance, health, the whole thing. :-)
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:48 am

Almost forgot!

Joe, thanks for the link! :-)
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Post by barr7430 » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:20 am

Yeah Joe, thanks for the link. I have seen pictures of this beautiful diorama before and admire the work greatly. This guy has fantastic ability.

As an aside, I was checking out the Bolt Action Miniatures site yesterday and see they are trailing new releases: Polish Infantry and cavalry for 1939!

I enjoyed doing the conversions which are completed but they are a bit of work and if I could get figures off the shelf and they were half way decent I'd take them.

BAM have really improved their stuff since the original releases. The newer figures are very good in deed. David Imrie has a few shots of BAM Soviets on his site which are very nice.

Maybe I'll get round to the 3rd Chevauleger after all.

Cheers

Barry
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