1:48th scale Königstiger

[14th Brooklyn]

I posted a few pictures of my Königstiger on my blog:

http://dhcwargamesblog.wordpress.com/20 ... the-prowl/

One is from Wartanks, two Tamiya and one Hobby Master. There are also a few shots that should give you an idea how they compare to one another.

Cheers,

Burkhard

[Friedrich August I.]

Very nice, Burkhard!


Just the Ambush Camo isn't quite right. Please take a look at that pic
http://www.germanmilitaryhistory.com/im ... gtfrtg.jpg
(no redbrown dots in the green )

Just a hint no offense

Günter

[14th Brooklyn]

Hi Günther I know. Painted these a couple of years ago and had only done little research on them. It only dawnd on me today when I took the photos that I hadmade a mistake there. So I will have to claim that the camo was field applied and that the crew took some liberties!

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

One more, and I think you will have the whole Königstiger component for the entire Normandy campaign!

Impressive looking sight. I assume you are using these with 28mm figures?

[14th Brooklyn]

There were actually quiet a few Tiger II in Normandy, including a whole Abteilung with the Porsche turret.

Yes, these are meant for 28mm. You need a large table for them, but I have that. Really looking forward to using them!

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

There were actually quiet a few Tiger II in Normandy, including a whole Abteilung with the Porsche turret.

The whole Abteilung Burkhard?

I thought it was just one company of the 503rd Heavy Tank battalion with about half a dozen Königstigers? (The rest of the battalion was Tiger I's) Mind you, I'm pretty rusty on this stuff so I've probably missed something, and either way, you're right. I underestimated. Thinking about it more, a full company would be around 10 or so Königstigers.

[edit]

You got me interested now!

Just dipped into my books (which are admittedly a bit old, so there may be more up to date information available) and I read s.H.PzAbt 503 had just 12 Königstigers in its 1st Company. This unit had the distinction of being the first company entirely equipped with Königstigers, but the other two companies of the Abteilung had Tiger I's.

The Abteilung didn't arrive in Normandy until July 2nd but not surprisingly soon had a big impact! A couple of weeks later 3rd Company lost most of it's Tiger I's to Allied carpet bombing around Caen and the company was withdrawn east of Paris to re-equip with Königstigers (1st and 2nd Companies remained in Normandy). However, the Normandy campaign was as good as over before these Königstigers could rejoin the Abteilung (3rd Company was stopped somewhere west of Paris after their returning rail column was attacked by Thunderbolts on the 12th August). So only the 12 Königstigers of the 1st Company took part in Normandy - all these tanks had been lost by the end of the Falaise gap battles.

[and another edit...]

Just spotted on-line a claim that 316th Funklenk Panzer Company of the 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion also operated some Königstigers in Normandy - so there's a few more of them.

...hmmm, another source implies these were Tiger I's - but even if they were Königstigers the 316th Funklenk Panzer Company had just 6 tanks (despite a 'paper strength' of 14) of which only 3 tanks were listed as operational in June 1944. Apparently this company mysteriously disappears from the 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion's order of battle in July (?)

DPT

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

Really looking forward to using them!

Some how I suspect your opponent is not so enthusiastic

[14th Brooklyn]

DPT... you got me looking it up as well, and I think you are right regarding the numbers. I was writing off the top of my head (while watching TV... never a good thing to do while making historical statements) and I already had a sinking feeling, that that would mean more Porsche turreted Tiger II then were build.

Sorry my mistake!

Regarding my opponent not being that enthusiastic... since I usually provide the forces for both sides and we roll for who plays which side... that might easily be me!

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

Sorry my mistake!

Nothing to apologies for my friend, and - for the record - I wasn't trying to score any points off you. I was genuinely interested in the question.

I already had a sinking feeling, that that would mean more Porsche turreted Tiger II then were build.

If the whole Abteilung had been equipped with Königstigers (about 40 tanks) you would still have been OK because (according to Chamberlain and Doyle) the first 50 tanks produced were originally fitted with the Porsche turret.

As it is, most (probably all) the 12 Königstigers in the 1st Company of s.H.PzAbt 503 had Porsche turrets. There is a slight doubt about this because there exists a photograph with the original German caption of "Invasionsfront" so it is thought to have been taken in Normandy* - which clearly shows a Königstiger with a Henschel turret. Unfortunately no unit insignia is visible so it's not possible to identify the unit.

DPT

(*This picture is reproduced in Eric Lefevre's "Panzers in Normandy" in the 'After the Battle' series)

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

...incidentally - none of this turret nonsense should ever stop you fielding your splendid Henschel turreted Königstiger models in Normandy games. Anyone who tells you they should have Porsche turrets should be told to go to the bar and buy the drinks!

I don't have any 28mm WWII stuff myself, but I must say looking at your Königstigers has tempted me. I might wander up to my local model shop later this week and see what they have in 1:48...

DPT

[14th Brooklyn]

Do not worry... I did not think you were trying to score any points off me!

I think it just goes to show the dangers if you are playing too many periods... the historic background becomes hard to remember.

I think both turret types would be fine for Normandy. There were a few Schwere Panzerabteilungen on duty. Most with Tiger I and (IIRC) two that had Tiger II later on. I think the photo you are refereing to actually shows tanks from the 503rd, which would indicate a mix of turrets. From a maintanance POV this would hardly matter since it was already buggered up by the inclusion of Tiger I in the unit.

I will have to to build at least one with a Porsche turret one day. There was an incident during Goodwood when a Lt. John Gorman ordered his driver to ram his Sherman into a Tiger II, which incidently was the Porsche version. I always wanted to wargame that incident and I would want to have the right models for that one!

If they do not have 1:48th scale models at your dealer... I got mine closer to your home than mine... from Hobby Link Japan. They usually have pretty good prices on these models!

Cheers,

Burkhard

[obriendavid]

The most important point that most WW2 german wargamers miss is that no matter how many tigers a unit was supposed to have on paper the numbers that actually got into action was only a fraction mainly due to breakdowns. A great book on the Normandy campaign, is Normandy Now and Then full of great pics and info.
Cheers
Dave

[Friedrich August I.]

The most important point that most WW2 german wargamers miss is that no matter how many tigers a unit was supposed to have on paper the numbers that actually got into action was only a fraction mainly due to breakdowns. A great book on the Normandy campaign, is Normandy Now and Then full of great pics and info.
Cheers
Dave

To do my share...I prefer to read what Tank-Commanders of this time have to tell - in this matter: Will Fey'Panzerkampf im Bild' Panzerkommandanten berichten. A Largescale book of Commanders of the Heavy Tank Battalions.
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/126811.Will_Fey
Will Fey was one of the Tank Aces with the Tiger I serving with the 102nd SS Heavy Tank Battalion.

[Friedrich August I.]

Burkhard / DPT,

You may find this website of interest

http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.shtml

It lists the s.Pz.Abt of the Wehrmacht and the SS including the time the got Tiger II as replacement for the Tiger I.

Hope that helps

Günter

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

The most important point that most WW2 german wargamers miss is that no matter how many tigers a unit was supposed to have on paper the numbers that actually got into action was only a fraction mainly due to breakdowns. A great book on the Normandy campaign, is Normandy Now and Then full of great pics and info.
Cheers
Dave

Indeed. And even on those very rare occasions that the heavy Abteilungs and Companies did manage to get most of their available Tigers operational at the same time they were invariable spread quite thinly in small groups across wide areas of countryside because even a single Tiger could dominate a relatively large area of the battlefield, but more importantly - they were easier to hide from Allied aircraft that way! I suspect we've all seen WWII games with ludicrous concentrations of German heavy armour on the table.

This picture of four Königstigers belonging to the 1st Company of Abteilung 503 in the woods at Chateau de Canteloup just after the battalion arrived in Normandy is a rare concentration of these monsters in one location.



To put this in perspective - in this one picture you are probably looking at about a third of the total Königstiger strength for the entire Normandy campaign - and that's a 'best case' estimate. Tiger breakdowns were so common, as Dave points out, that you could quite easily be looking here at 40% to 50% of the operational Königstigers available in Normandy at any given point.

DPT