Saxon uniforms in NYW?

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TheRightfulKing2013
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Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:56 am

What were the Saxon uniforms in the Nine Years War? (1688-97)
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by lee sherman » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:55 am

I've seen some red coats with various cuff colours and also grey coats with various cuff colours, also they all seem to have brown breeches so red coats brown breeches and grey coats brown breeches... maybe there like bavarian breeches which were leather rather than cloth? Also stocking colours differ BUT don't take my word on it
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:09 am

The Saxon Uniform in these days were of a white grey color, only the Leibregiment wore red coats since 1688.
The change to red coats came with an order from October 30th, 1695.
Each Infantry Regiment had as a 9th company, Grenadiers attached. Those wore white grey Uniforms, blue Linen Caps and blue stockings.

Imageu513-005 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr

Imageu228-060 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr

Imageu228-058 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr

Imageu228-032 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr

Imageu228-031 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr
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"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:20 am

Thank you.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:25 am

Günter, Thank you for providing these. It is nice to know there are still a few knowledgable people on this forum.
The history of grenadiers in the Saxon Army of the period is a bit confusing. In 1683 the first grenadier company under a Hauptmann von Bose was formed with a strength of 103 men. At the time, it was an independent company. Over the next few years, a grenadier company was added to each infantry regiment. In addition, von Bose’s Company became a small battalion of three companies in 1684. This battalion was dissolved in 1685 with the men going to the Leibregiment zu Fuß. A new grenadier battalion of six companies was formed in 1687 from the returning survivors of the three regiments that had been in Venetian service, but it was broken up in 1688. Through 1689, it appears that each regiment retained its grenadier company in addition to the on-again, off-again grenadier battalion. In 1690, another grenadier battalion of six companies was formed, this time from the grenadier companies of the regiments. The following year it was reduced to four companies, and dissolved in 1692 with each regiment again receiving a grenadier company of 8 gefreiters and 48 men.
The uniform of von Bose’s Grenadier Company is the grey faced blue as illustrated and probably remained the same when it was expanded to a small, short-lived battalion. The grenadiers in the infantry regiment probably wore the uniform of their parent regiment, rather than the grey faced blue of von Bose’s. The uniform of the grenadier battalion formed in 1690 was the same as that of the Leibregiment – red faced blue.
We have two contemporary descriptions of Saxon infantry uniforms, one from 1689 and the other from 1690. With the exception of one unit, they both agree. From the very beginning the Leibregiment wore red faced blue. It changed to red faced white around 1693 when it became the Leib-Garde zu Fuß. In 1689 the other 5 infantry regiments wore a grey coat with two having blue and three having red facings. In 1690 one of the blue faced units is listed as having green facings. Two of the units were described as wearing white coats and the others as grey. It is probable that the white coats were a lighter shade of grey.
The uniform of the cuirassier regiments was as illustrated in the plate above. Regimental destinctions were the color of the schbraque and standards. The 1690 source lists grey coats without colored facings. Perhaps this was a type of overcoat. Dragoons are described as wearing a grey coat without a facing color.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Thanks Dan Schorr. Do you have any information on whether the cuirassiers kept the lobster-helmet in the 1690s, and also when the matchlock was replaced with the flintlock? Also any information on dragoon uniforms?
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by Friedrich August I. » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:02 pm

TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:03 pm
Thanks Dan Schorr. Do you have any information on whether the cuirassiers kept the lobster-helmet in the 1690s, and also when the matchlock was replaced with the flintlock? Also any information on dragoon uniforms?
Dan is simply THE MAN for such questions...I am just a Scholar of his wisdom :wink:

According to Schuster & Francke the change from Matchlock to Flintlock started around 1686 with imported Firearms from Lorenz.
The Main supplier of Weapons were Suhl and Olbernhau. In the following Years there were many experiments for fixing Bayonets on those Weapons. 1688 were the first Flintlock muskets distributed to the Troops. 1693 and 94 the whole Saxon Army was equipped with Flintlock Muskets.

For Dragoons... its Dan who stated Info's in his last line :wink:

Leibregiment Grenadier
Imageu228-056 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr

Saxon Infantry 1695

Imageu228-061 by GÜNTER HEIM, auf Flickr
Last edited by Friedrich August I. on Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:46 pm

Günter,

Thanks once again. Do you have an explanation of the colours plate for the cuirassier regiments? Very interesting. First I have seen anything on this subject.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by Friedrich August I. » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:29 pm

danschorr wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:46 pm
Günter,

Thanks once again. Do you have an explanation of the colours plate for the cuirassier regiments? Very interesting. First I have seen anything on this subject.
I am sorry, its a mistake made by me :oops: , those are colors for the "Ritterpferde" 1618 I remove the plate so it don't leads to further confusion
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:44 pm

Günter. That is too bad. I was hoping we finally had information on the cuirassier regiments. My only other comment is that the 1683 date for the Grenadier of the Leibregiment is wrong. The only grenadier unit that early was von Bose's. All the best.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:26 pm

dan schorr wrote:In 1689 the other 5 infantry regiments wore a grey coat with two having blue and three having red facings. In 1690 one of the blue faced units is listed as having green facings. Two of the units were described as wearing white coats and the others as grey. It is probable that the white coats were a lighter shade of grey.
Do you know the names of the regiments with each uniform? Thanks.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:34 pm

I'm slightly confused - the information I had on the Saxon infantry (from Dan's old "Scanian Wars" website, IIRC) was that each musketeer company had a section (probably not called that, just my term for it) of grenadiers and that these were converged into a single company just prior to action. Was this a later (WSS) development, or was this amalgamation done on a longer-term basis (eg a campaign), or has that original information now been superceded by new stuff?

Also, how long did the Saxon musketeers retain the swine-feather seen in the above illustrations? Was it until the introduction of the flintlock? Presumably it was replaced/augmented by the plug bayonet at some point - any dates for this?

Thanks.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by danschorr » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:56 pm

Here are my notes on Saxon grenadiers, boar spears, etc for 1682-97.

Baron,
In 1683 the first grenadier company under a Hauptmann von Bose was formed with a strength of 103 men. At the time, it was an independent company. Over the next few years, a grenadier company was added to each infantry regiment. In addition, von Bose’s Company became a small battalion of three companies in 1684. This battalion was dissolved in 1685 with the men going to the Leibregiment zu Fuß. A new grenadier battalion of six companies was formed in 1687 from the returning survivors of the three regiments that had been in Venetian service, but it was broken up in 1688. Through 1689, it appears that each regiment retained its grenadier company in addition to the on-again, off-again grenadier battalion. In 1690, another grenadier battalion of six companies was formed, this time from the grenadier companies of the regiments. The following year it was reduced to four companies, and dissolved in 1692 with each regiment again receiving a grenadier company of 8 gefreiters and 48 men.
In 1687 each regiment also had a grenadier company that had a prima plana of 7 (Hauptmann, Leutnant, Sergeant, three Korporals and 1 Drummer), 15 gefreiters and 77 grenadiers. The actual strength of these companies was often far less than authorized, normally around 60 according to Schuster and Francke.
In April1694 the regimental organization was dissolved, and 10 independent battalions were formed from the 6 infantry regiments. Each battalion had 10 companies of 89 men plus prima plana, and a grenadier company of around 64 men. This organization lasted until October 1694 when the regiment was reintroduced. Five regiments were created with 1,494 men in 10 companies. The Leibgarde zu Fuß had 2,988 men in 20 companies or four battalions. It is unclear if the grenadier company was retained, or grenadiers were assigned to each of the line companies.

Reference boar spears, plug bayonets and flintlock:
Schuster and Francke indicate that the first bayonets (plug bayonets) were received in January 1686. By March of that year 500 bayonets were issued in Regiment zu Fuß Herzog Christian, and by 1687 the delivery of bayonets to the infantry was “much advanced”. Even though bayonets were issued, the infantry continued to also carry the boar spear throughout most of the period. This was partculary true when fighting the Turk. They were used to form the chevaux de frise. If not carried by the individual soldier, they were carried in regimental wagons along with the beams to form the chevaux de frise. This was true even during the GNW when the Saxons deployed chevaux de frise at Kliszov 1702 and Fraustadt 1706.
In 1687 the first delivery of iron ramrods was received, and the first issue of flintlock muskets took place in 1688 when 3 NCOs and 56 men in each of the six infantry regiments were supplied with flintlocks. These might possibly represent the grenadier company in each of the regiments. By 1693-1694 all of the infantry were equipped with flintlock muskets.









RightfulKing,
Coats and facing colors 1689 and 1690 from contemporary sources:
Leibregiment zu Fuß red faced blue
Regt. Zu Fuß Flemming white faced blue
(Feldmarschall)
Regt. Zu Fuß Graf Reuß white faced red
Regt. Zu Fuß Zinzendorf grey faced blue-1689, green-1690 **
Regt. Zu Fuß Prinz Christian grey faced red
Regt. Zu Fuß Uetterodt grey faced red
Bataillon Grenadier 1690 only - red coat, grey overcoat (überrock)

** The blue facing might in fact have been green. The color might have faded from weather, etc., or the green facing might have been blue but seemed green to the observer.

Hope this helps answer both your questions.
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:58 pm

Thanks very much, Dan - most helpful. :D
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Re: Saxon uniforms in NYW?

Post by Friedrich August I. » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:17 am

Small addition to Dan's information's - The Boarspear was not only used by the Saxons but also by the Electorate of Brandenburg (Prussia) for the same reasons - give the Foot Soldiers some protection against Cavalry by building Chevaux de Fris after removing the Pikes.
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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